Subject: Re: Self-Destructing Newsgroups
From: mccarty@aaet.csc.ti.com (Rick McCarty)
Date: 1990-11-26, 13:52
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.tv.twin-peaks

In article <1990Nov22.215433.1284@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) writes:

> >mccarty@aaet.csc.ti.com (Rick McCarty) writes:
> >
>> >>I'll tell you why it's true.  Because each system in Usenet is autonomous.
>> >>There's no board of directors.  And there's no Usenet "superuser".  To
>> >>successfully remove a group from the net requires LOTS of folks to act in
>> >>concert.  Until an architectural or other change happens in Usenet, the
>> >>situation will remain that way.
> >
> >In other words, give up the idea because it'll never work.  Based on
> >the fact that most sites still run the net.* groups, right?
> >

That is NOT what I said.  I did not state that the idea should be given
up on.  And I did not say that it will never work.  I did say that it won't
work given the CURRENT state of affairs.  We should work on FIXING the
problem first, putting a mechanism in place that will handle the situation
before proceeding forward.  I don't drive my car without brakes - do you?

I'm more than willing to take part in a constructive discussion to see
if we can make some useful changes to handle situations like Twin Peaks.
Brad Templeton suggested use of a "trial" group hierarchy, which apparently
exists.  Perhaps that could be investigated.

> >As you point out, systems are autonomous.  But they're not on
> >autopilot, and there *is* an informal mechanism that can do the job.

Quite a number of systems ARE on autopilot (others are one step
removed from it).

> >It's the admins cooperating with each other.  When one of our (iti.org)
> >neighbors starts feeding us crap, I notice it in the logs and drop them
> >a line.  The response is usually "Thank you for noticing, I'll fix it
> >right away."  They do the same for us.  It actually works rather well.
> >

What a nice guy you are.  You deserve a medal. ;-)  Unfortunately
not all net.neighborhoods are so cooperative.

Its pretty easy to detect net.crap.  However, that's not the subject.
here.  We're dealing with OFFICIAL Usenet actions.  The only easy
official Usenet action is to create a group after its been voted in.
Other actions are not so easy, because they require more manual
intervention, and unless a sysadmin is up to date on what is/isn't
official, it's not likely to happen.

Unfortunately, not everyone is as diligent as you are.  One reason
why we implement certain checks and balances in our systems
(software and otherwise) is to compensate for lack of attention and
care.  Right now, the mechanism we have in place doesn't have the
features needed to handle certain things well.

You appear to be falling into the trap where you believe that the
rest of the world is similar to you own local domain.  It may be in
places, but not everywhere.  Don't let ideality become your reality.

> >What needs to change is for news nodes to be a bit less tolerant of
> >out-of-date neighbors.  If someone seventeen hops down the line is
> >posting to dead.group a letter from me at home isn't going to do much.
> >That's impersonal whining from a pedant.  But a note from their
> >newsfeed carries both personal and political weight.

As you admit, there's a problem with things as they are.  So let us
find a workable solution for the net at large - then we won't have to
have discussions/arguments along the lines of this one.

> >For future reference, I'm working on a new Cnews logfile analysis
> >tool that tells you who originated and who fed you bogus news.  Handy
> >for monitoring just that sort of thing.  Yes, I'll post when it's
> >done.
> >

Good tool for all those net.police wannabes out there. ;-)
(Seriously, I'm sure your tool will be a useful addition)

===========================================================================
Rick McCarty  12501 Research Boulevard
Texas Instruments Incorporated                    P.O. Box 149149, MS 2227
Information Technology Group                      Austin, Texas  78714-9149
mccarty@aaet.csc.ti.com                           (512) 250-4108
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