Season 1, Episode 03: Rest in Pain — April 26–May 02, 1990

> > [REFERENCES TO CONVENIENCE STORE = 7-11 --> CASINO; GUM YOU LIKE = DOUBLEMINT
> > --> TWINS, ETC.]

What's intriguing about all of these references (and I'm sure I've forgotten
some) is this if indeed they are/were part of Lynch/Frost's mindset when
concocting all of this, we will very likely NOT see it upfront and direct
within the framework of the program, since mentioning trade names and such
could be construed as advertising time for the companies whose trade names are
implied here.  Perhaps this is what is meant when it is said that the mystery
will not be solved, but we (the audience) will be able to figure ouot who the
killer is.  It's an interesting device, providing clues to the audience that
the characters cannot make use of for "real world" practicality reasons.
--
Look for significance where there's none intended, and you will surely find it.
Rich Rosenrlr@toccata.rutgers.edu
--

In article <1990Apr27.161128.17602@cs.rochester.edu>,
ferguson@cs.rochester.edu (George Ferguson) writes:
> > I love the use of "death" and pies: "a cherry pie to die for," "the place
> > where pies go when they die." Makes me feel uneasy about Cooper's stability.

I was thinking about this.  I have this book on Woody Allen's films (Woody
Allen:  His Films and Career" by Douglas Brode) which places inordinate
emphasis on the relationship between food and sex in Allen's work.  Having just
seen "The Cook, The Thief, His Wife, and Her Lover" last weekend, which links
food, and sex, AND death, together in a mishmash that I describe to people as
being what would happen if you took the mood and setting of the Mr. Creosote
scene (in the restaurant) from Monty Python's The Meaning of Life and stretched
it out into a full length film, partially by adding a lot of gratuitous
sex [ :-) ], I was reminded of the connection between food and death in Twin
Peaks.  Specifically, Cooper's comments like "the cherry pie'll kill ya" and
"this must be where pies go when they die".  Any others?
--
"A new religion that'll bring you to your knees, Black Velvet if you please..."
Rich Rosenrlr@toccata.rutgers.edu
--

In article <24112@netnews.upenn.edu>, roddy@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Brian Roddy)
writes:
> > J, R and the secret society seem to throw off the evil sheriff theory for
> > good.

Don't count your chiclets.  It occurred to me that it was kind of odd for a
member of the police to have to be part of a "secret society" to fight crime.
I mean, an eccentric millionaire with an obsession about his murdered parents,
him I could see going undercover and being a crimefighter in secret.  But isn't
it a little redundant (and maybe counterproductive) for a policeman to do so? 
What I was thinking was that the motivation for this society was not as
beneficent as it seemed.  Perhaps there are competing secret societies, the
Bookhouse Boys being one, and another one being comprised of people like Leo,
Bobby, Mike, Jacques and his brother (Frere Jacques, Frere Jacques, dormez
vous?...)  [PARDON MY FRENCH]  Each might see the other as a great evil.  Each
might be competing with the other, even in such areas as drugrunning.  Hmmm...
--
"Fate, up against your will, through the thick and thin,
 You will wait until you give yourself to him..."
Rich Rosenrlr@toccata.rutgers.edu
--

Some observations/speculations about episode 4

1) Laura/Madeleine Theory (same person)

When Madeleine shows up Leland asks her "Madeleine, is that really you?"
She never answers.  This lends support to the double theory.

2) Dr. Haywood Theory

Doctor Haywood is fighting with Albert to get the body buried.  Is
he afraid of what Albert may find?  This lends support to the theory
that Dr. Haywood saw Laura go bad and wants to kill her.

3) Runing Jokes

Did anyone else notice the coffee cup in the secret passageway just 
before Audrey opened the peep hole?

4) Bobby and the cross

Some people have noted that Bobby was bending his arms back in front of
the cross just before hs dad entered into meaningful dialogue with him.
Actually I thought he was imitating Jesus on the cross, and this was
martyr/Jesus symbolism.  After that and his speech at the funeral
("We're all resposible") I think Bobby is supposed to be one of the
good characters.  (If you can consider a drug dealer who's cheating on
his girlfriend good ...)

5) Spoiler to Euro-version


In a rolling stone article on TP, one of the actors states that the 
Euro-version had an ending that involved among other things "time-travel".
This certainly lends weight to the Mike and Bobby from the future
theory.  I'm hopeful that Lynch will end the North American version on
a more realistic note.

I have plenty more observations to make, but I'll have to go back, watch
the tape and write them down.  Till then...

- Avi
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Avi Belinsky                 Electrical Engineering, University of Waterloo

                             abelinsk@sunee.uwaterloo.ca
(519) 747-0437 - Home        abelinsk@sunee.waterloo.edu
(519) 888-4762 - Office      ...uunet!watmath!sunee!abelinsk

> > I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned the opening credits of the soap
> > opera the Palmers are watching right before Madeline shows up.  The second
> > actress was shown as playing two characters, one a "good girl" type and the
> > other a "bad girl/girl in trouble" type.  Very significant, if you ask me.

In addition to this, as Laura's cousin and Uncle Leland first meet,
the father in the soap, who has apparently locked himself in his room
contemplating suicide, has his thoughts interrupted by his daughter
knocking at the door.  Just as the first scenes between uncle and niece
take place, the daughter in the soap is saying something like, "Daddy, ______
is here to see you.  Daddy, are you in there?  Daddy!"  Again, very
significant. 

*************
Alfred Lorber
aal%wilbur.ae.utexas.edu@emx.utexas.edu

I'm back from re-watching the fourth episode of TP, and here are
more of my observations/comments/speculations...

1) Audrey tells Agent Cooper " I understood her (laura) better than the 
   rest.  What does this mean?

2) Cooper says that Truman and Lucy wre in his dream.  They weren't in
   the dream we saw in episode 3.  Would this have given too much away?
   Significance?

3) Cooper mentions the fact that the room in his dream, and the dwarf's
   suit were both Red.  They wouldn't have repeated this if it wasn't
   important.  Cooper also mentions the land where the birds sing, and
   there is always pretty music in the air.  Ditto for importance.
   What do these mean? Break the code, solve the crime.

4) When Albert gets hit by Truman he lands face first lying down on
   Laura and he says "How appropriate!"  What does Albert mean?

5) Did anyone else notice that at the end of the autopsy scene, Laura's
   arms are hanging to the side of the table. "Sometimes my arms bend
   back"  It may not be significant, but was a nice touch.

6) In the soap opera Jared (the father of the twins Jade and Emerald
   (are the names significant)) is about to commit suicide because of
   finacial difficulties.  Leland parallel ???

7) When Hank's parole officer is talking to Norma he says that he will
   be granted parol tomorrow "barring any unforseen circumstances".  
   Are these circumstances going to happen or is it just part of the 
   parole officer's high-falutin' language that had me cracking up.

8) Bobby's father (the major) talks about how when young men die in war,
   they die too soon, and Laura died too soon.  Was she involved in a war?
   (War on drugs ?)

9) Albert says that he has done "enough forensic _SPADE_ work to save
   Cooper's butt".  Insignificant but cute, considering all the other
   suit of cards symbols.

10) The killer washed his hands. (from Albert's report) Who would do this?
    Was it Leland (blood on his hands in episode 3) Big Ed (greasy hands
    from working in a garage: doubtful, he's a book house boy) or just
    the killer trying to get the blood off his hands.  I doubt this one
    too.  They wouldn't have mentioned it if it wasn't significant.

11) The animal bites on Laura's neck and shoulders.  What could this be
    from, and what the &^%&^ does it mean?

12) Why the letter J in Laura's stomach?  Was she eating the killer's
    name in Alpha-bits? :-)

13) Cooper tells Diane that he thinks he can get some property that will
    be reasonably priced.  Is he referring to the fact that Twin Peaks
    is a cheap place to live, or that someone (Ben Horne) is driving down
    the price so they can buy it all up?

14) Did you notice the eye-patch on one of  Nadine's dolls.  Cute.

15) Nadine seems to be in love with Big Ed again. ("last night was great",
    "you came back to me", etc.)  Big Ed seems to be as aloof as ever.
    This probably has nothing to do with the murder, but is related to the
    future plot lines, if and when the series is renewed.

16) When a motorcycle rides up to Ed/Nadine's house, Ed says it's James.
    Nadine says "James who?"  How can she forget?  Is there another 
    bike-riding James?

17) The presence in the woods:  This is perhaps the most significant
    thing said in the episode.  Is it real, imagined, made-up?  The
    only things it told me for sure was that our guesing about occult
    involvement is correct.

18) Was Andrew murdered ?  Does it relate to this murder or is it just
    Catherine/Ben's power struggle for the mill?

19) Dr. Jacoby: "I'm a terrible person"  Why? Did he kill Laura?  Did
    he allow the murder?  Did he allow Laura to get into drug dealing?
    Is he referring to the fact that he just doesn't give a shit about
    the people in Twin Peaks?

20) Dr. Jacoby: "I thought no one could reach me again."  Who reached
    him the first time?

21) Truman to Josey Packer: "nothing will happen to you while I'm around"
    Is something going to happen when he isn't around? (like in Canada
    checking out the One Eyed Jack)

22) The screenwriter listed in the credits is Harley Peyton.  Does he
    really exist or is this another one of Lynch's jokes about Twin Peaks
    being similar to Peyton Place.

Finally,

23) In the preview of next week's episode we see a llama in one scene
    with Cooper and Truman.  LLama <---> Dalai Lama ???

That's all I noticed that I thought was worth mentioning.  Perhaps
some of you can expand on the significance of some of my observations.

- Avi

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Avi Belinsky                 Electrical Engineering, University of Waterloo

                             abelinsk@sunee.uwaterloo.ca
(519) 747-0437 - Home        abelinsk@sunee.waterloo.edu
(519) 888-4762 - Office      ...uunet!watmath!sunee!abelinsk

Please put the title of the series you are discussing in the subject line!

This should be happening whatever series is being discussed.  There are people
out here who aren't interested and for those who are, putting the series' name
in the subject line makes it that much easier to find.

Thanks.


***********************************Oh boy!*************************************
Quote:  "If you look into my eyes, you'll see another soul." Sam, QUANTUM LEAP
Disclamer: "Disclaim THIS, pal!" (my employer thinks I'm working)
I am:      Debbie Brown  cci632!jloda!deb -OR- deb%jloda@cci632
********** It's 1995: do you know where your quantum physicist is? ************

In article <626HAAR@xavier.swarthmore.edu> awp92@campus.swarthmore.edu writes:
> >-Message-Text-Follows-
> >
> >
> >I think it's entirely possible that in the pilot there was a day either 1)
> >between the discovery of Laura's body and Ronette walking out of the woods or
> >2) (much more likely) Ronette walking out of the woods and Cooper showing up. 

Nope. Laura was killed the morning of Friday, Feb. 24, between midnight
and 4 AM. Her body was discovered early Friday morning. All of the
action in the pilot takes place that day. We know this because at the
opening of episode 1, Cooper tastes the coffee at the Great Northern
for the first time. Episode 1 covers Saturday, Feb. 25 up to about
7 PM. Episode 2 opens with the Horne family having dinner Saturday
night and continues through Sunday, Feb. 26, showing everyone in
the RR diner after church. It ends with Cooper's call to Truman
announcing that he knows who the killer is. Episode 3 opens with
Cooper entering the dining room at the Great Northern on Monday,
Feb. 27 for breakfast. This is the day of Laura's funeral.

It doesn't seem possible to have a missing day in there and still
have everything link together. The fact that the last time anyone
(that we know about) saw Laura alive was on Thursday, Feb. 23 was
clearly established in the pilot.

Dave Mack

Heard from a "reliable" source
1. 20 episodes have in fact been ordered for next season
and more important
2. D.L. is put the word out on the street -
   Looking for Writers Hit By Lightning
??
That's the word in the N.W.

In article <54265@microsoft.UUCP> adamba@microsoft.UUCP (Adam BARR) writes:
> >
> >4) On the 4/19 show on KOMO in Seattle, about 15 minutes before the end
> >there was a little "newsbreak" and the story was "missing person mystery
> >in the Snohomish river". How strange.
> >

And in Boston, the local voice-over during the closing credits:
    Hi everyone, this is Ilene Close.  Monday we take you out to the
    ball park to celebrate opening day at Fenway; and later in the week,
    Can a family be so close that they're unhealthy?  we'll talk about it;
    plus, we'll meet a housewife who was falsely convicted of murder.
    Good Day! beginning Monday at 9.

Another Coincidence on the Trip from
Robert DeBenedictis

In article <10059@sdcc6.ucsd.edu> ma299ai@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (Jan Bielawski) writes:
> >Also, have you noticed how Lucy's character was directed in the
> >last episode?  She was made into a typical soap airhead.  (When Cooper
> >"explains" his dream for example.)  In other episodes she was a real, full,
> >nice person.  Those delicate inflections of her voice, movements...  None
> >of this in yesterday's episode.
Lucy doesn't miss a trick.  She listens, she takes notes and she
knows what kind of donuts to get for Special Agent Cooper.  Don't be
surprised if she bakes him a cherry pie, or even solves some of this
mystery.
    Twin Peaks
 Not Just Another
     Whodonut
-Jim
.
.
.

In article <54332@microsoft.UUCP> stevea@microsoft.UUCP (Steve
ALBERTSON) wrote:
> >                                                        ... Any
> > rich people out there want to send him a terminal and a network
> > account?

Or more conventionally, a volunteer to send D. L. hardcopies of a.t.t-p 
periodically?  B^)      ^                           (I don't think 
I'd appreciate getting multiple collections of overlapping material
to wade through and collate... even if I had a secretary.)

In article <13137@venera.isi.edu> raveling@isi.edu (Paul Raveling) writes:
> >
> >If Twin Peaks' 1st season is accepted well enough, it could provide
> >a foot in the door for a higher standard in network TV.  My main
> >fear is that ABC could drop it if the couch potatos who vegetate
> >on mindless mundane shows tune out.

I can't see TP enduring beyond 8 episodes. Network TV would be considerably 
broadened if ABC adopted a programming approach like that of PBS's "Mystery!"
Call it "Soap!" Get weird and wonderful directors/writers to work on stories
that might last 4 weeks, or 6, or 8, or 12. Think of the talent you could 
attract by dangling that sort of format in front of Hollywood's (and independ-
entdom's) best directors. Who knows, maybe that's what ABC's new creative dir-
ector (whose name someone posted) is in fact doing. 

--Keith Dawson
dawson@apollo.hp.com

In article <15728@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> rlwald@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Robert L. Wald) writes:
> >
> >  ABS has no right to compain, though, putting it against a powerhouse
> >like Cheers.

Summary of TP ratings to date (percentages):

 Episode 0: 33%   [pilot -- dir. Lynch]
         1  28%
         2  21%   [dir. Lynch]
         3  18%

(Source: newspaper accounts, some from memory.) There seem to be two statistics
quoted in regard to ratings: one extrapolatable to how many millions of people 
were watching, and another representing percentage of homes with a TV turned on 
at the time; figures above are the latter.

Newspaper accounts keep mentioning that the series that TP replaced in this ill-
favored timeslot, The Long Riders, was cancelled when it fell to a 15% share.

--Keith Dawson
dawson@apollo.hp.com

In article <800@Intrepid.ECE.UKans.EDU> bgingric@Intrepid.ECE.UKans.EDU (Barry Gingrich) writes:
    >>hey, and what about in that preview for next week...
    >>dali lama (however you spell it...)
  >
  >I always figured that a Dali Llama would be surrounded 
  >by melting clocks and flaming telephones...oh, never mind.

    A one-L lama is a priest,
    A two-L llama is a beast.
    And I will bet my top pajama
    There isn't any three-L lllama.
  
[From the Golden Trashery of Ogden Nashery, from memory, from early child-
hood, so probably not letter-perfect.]

--Keith Dawson
dawson@apollo.hp.com

1) Laura's arms were mighty flexible when Albert (give me tools or give me
death, better yet, give me both!) was with her in the morgue.  Hmm... anybody
hear of rigor mortis after at least 2+ days of being stone dead?

2) What has Audrey seen through the peephole?  "I knew Laura better than most
people..." "Did Laura talk about my father much?"  and something about her
father singing to laura...
-we know that dad is a suzzbag who visits the whorehouse a lot
-laura's friends (and perhaps laura) worked there too
-laura helped Audrey's brother,
SO Is it possible that scuzzbag dad came in and blackmailed Laura while she
was with Johnny into having sex with him because he knew about the cocaine
and prostitution (at funeral, Bobby accuses everybody of knowing that she
was in trouble).  AND is it possible that he had sex with Laura righ there in
front of Johnny thinking that he was too out of it to notice.  This may lead to
later retaliations by Johnny against the evil dad.  Why does Johnny wear the 
headdress... does it relate to this?

3) Johnny is now tight with Dr. Joccoby (coconut man) and Joccoby was tight
with Laura, so maybe now Johnny will start opening up and telling hitherto
unknown juicy things and act out against...

4) Jocoby sez he's such a bad person... could it be because he knew what was 
happening to Laura because of the tapes she gave him?  Maybe he wanted to 
do something but she told him not to...so if he hears something else from 
little Johnny maybe he'll start acting better by doing something about
what he knows?

5) Did you notice that the log lady was right next to the preacher at the
funeral?  Why the position of prominance?  When will someone get the nerve 
to ask the log something?

Tom and Kit
"Television is just another appliance -- it's a toaster with pictures"
            -- Mark Fowler, head of FCC under Reagan

In article <523@eliot.UUCP>, reidc@eliot.UUCP (Reid Carson/Development) writes:
> > In response to the question about where Kimmie Robertson has appeared
> > before, she had a bit part in "Honey, I Shrunk the Kids" as part of the
> > couple that the Szalinskis' neighbors, the Taylors (?) (you know, the Matt
> > Frewer character), were to go fishing with.  Hmmm, as I look back on that
> > sentence, it's a little confusing, but I hope you get the idea.

I thought they just got her by fusing Victoria Jackson and Bernadette Peters
into one person.
--
Look for significance where there's none intended, and you will surely find it.
Rich Rosenrlr@toccata.rutgers.edu
--

Has anyone mentioned the collection or analysis of DNA evidence?
In most murder cases these days and all involving possible rape 
samples (vaginal swabs and blood samples) would be taken.  I'm
sure the results of any sperm and blood DNA fingerprinting would 
be extremely enlightening.  (see the Blooding by Wambaugh). In the
real case of which this book is about they tested the blood for DNA
type of every male in the village.  So in small town this is not 
beyond the realm of possibility of course not just males in this case.

On another but related issue - geography - I worked on a rape/murder case 
in Colville, Washington.  This town is in the extreme NE of Wash state -
about 15 miles from both Canadian and Idaho border and in many ways fits
TP feel.  Of course TP is a composite town and the Snoqualmie relations are
strong but Kyle, having grown up in Yakima would sure know about Colville.
One thing is that Colville seems more like a mining then logging town.
Colville also has what's thought to be an internationally known family 
restaurant The Farm House - overlooking the river and valley - I recommend
it highly.  I'm not familiar enough with the Colville surrounds to talk about
more geo similiarities.  Anyone else been to Colville lately perhaps stayed
at Benny's Panorama - if yes say hi to Miss Benny for me.
D.



-- David A. Adler University of Washington Pathology SM-30 Seattle, WA 98195

A one "l" lama is a priest from Tibet.  A two "ll" llama is a
funny camel from the Andes.  And a three "lll" lllama...





















is a big fire. (A three alarmer, get it?  Wink, nudge and all
that...)


Now back to the usual Twin Peaks Speculation Bowl.



--
*******Readercon 4 - July 1991 - Worcester MA - GOH: Tom Disch***********
*   Connie Hirsch, fuzzy@athena.mit.edu        Elliot Burch LIVES!      *
*  "If the Blue Sky Mining Company can't come to my rescue/If the sugar *
*  refinin' company can't save me/Who's gonna save me?" -Midnight Oil   *

I just had a thought about the Norwegians.  What were they there to buy?
Real Estate, obviously, but what Real Estate? Is it made clear?  I assume that
since Jerry and Piper Laurie (I'm great with names) are trying to get Josie to
sell the Sawing Mill that that is what the Norwegians were going to buy.

This makes Jerry seem like less of a suspect since he wouldn't jeopardize his
dealings like this.

gene

A couple comments and speculations on episode 4:

1) Nadine is reminiscing about high school and saying how she knew Ed
would fall in love with her when "he got to know her".  Then James walks
in and Nadine doesn't recognize him.  Hmmm... everyone's been wondering
why Ed stays with Nadine (or why he married her in the first place),
maybe James is their son, and Ed married Nadine out of a sense of
responsibility, but has been hiding the truth to protect James.

2) Something was clearly going on between Laura and her father.  I
think the both the dancing scenes (both in with Laura's picture and
after the funeral) plus the coffin jumping scene with her mother's
comment "Don't ruin this _too_!" indicate that there's more going on
here than meets the eye.

3) Cooper threatens to stick Albert at a desk job deep inside
Washington. So much for the theory that Cooper isn't really with the
FBI.  On the other hand, I suppose he _could_ be with another agency --
the DEA would make sense given the drug sales.  For a stranger twist,
Lynch could throw in the CIA and international espionage. (Why not?  We
already have murder, drug rings, prostitution, pornography, local power
plays, random graft and corruption, psychic powers, prescient dreams,
secret societies, and a presence of evil in the woods.)

The best thing about this show is not knowing what is going to happen next...

_______________________________________________________________________________

Brian YamauchiUniversity of Rochester
yamauchi@cs.rochester.eduComputer Science Department
_______________________________________________________________________________

Just Episode 3 again last night.  After the Rock/Divination scene,
everyone's back at the police station.  Albert shows up.  Lucy is
reading a book that is clearly titled "Tibet."

That little schemer.  Maybe she's the one who sent for the Llama.
And where did she get it from?  Llama-Fresh Farms in Paraguay,
perhaps?

In article <oaC8U4y00jukRgJ3AD@cs.cmu.edu> Jon.Webb@CS.CMU.EDU writes:
> >I also think the murderer is Dr. Will Hayward, the doctor who delivered
> >Laura...
> >...  I think
> >that following this conversation, while driving to pick up the bicycle,
> >he got Donna to tell him where she hid the necklace, which they went and
> >dug up together. (There's no way anyone could have found it just by
> >knowing the location unless they were there when James put the rock on
> >it; they would've had to be in the woods watching the two of them, and
> >it would be too malicious of Lynch to put the murderer just at the right
> >place in the woods at the right time.)

Aaahhh....  Impossible unless you happen to be a highly talented Blackfoot
tracker.  There were, after all, lots of footprints and motorcycle tracks
right around the site where James crudely buried the necklace.  Gee...  Are
there any highly talented Blackfoot trackers in Twin Peaks?

-- ************************ dgross@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU **************************** * Your body creates as much as two quarts of saliva daily. * The Statue of Liberty was originally built for the Suez Canal. * More Americans visit Tijuana than any other foreign city.

In article <19069.26382260@merrimack.edu> rand@merrimack.edu writes:
> >Sorry, I fogot the footnote (*):

> >* I originally thought this was 'banality' but several viewings makes
> >me think Albert coined this new form of the root 'vain'.

More likely venality.

--
Archer Sully       |  I'm 27 years old.  That's 54 in Nerd Years
(archer@esd.sgi.com)  | -- Keith Rienzi

In article <oaC8U4y00jukRgJ3AD@cs.cmu.edu> Jon.Webb@CS.CMU.EDU writes:
> >I also think the murderer is Dr. Will Hayward, the doctor who delivered
> >Laura.  

So Dr. Hayward, on Thursday night, manages to kidnap not only Laura
but Ronette, takes them both to the boxcars, rapes them both, kills
Laura but leaves Ronette alive, wraps Laura's body in plastic and dumps
it in the river/lake, then pulls himself out of bed a few hours later
to come and examine Laura's body with the Sheriff? Jeez, I hope I'm
as energetic as Dr. Hayward when I'm his age.

I think we're looking for someone slightly younger.

Dave Mack

In article <13331@csli.Stanford.EDU> podlozny@csli.Stanford.EDU (Ann Podlozny) writes:

> >hey, and what about in that preview for next week...
> >the lama...
> >dali lama (however you spell it...)
> >haha haha.

Away up high in the Himalayas
There lives a cat they call the Dalai Lama.
A thousand monks at his direction
practicing things like astral projection.

Dalai...Dalai Lama.

- Alex Chilton.


--
Archer Sully       |  I'm 27 years old.  That's 54 in Nerd Years
(archer@esd.sgi.com)  | -- Keith Rienzi

In article <79825@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> geiser@heron.cis.ohio-state.edu (paul d geiser) writes:

> >In article <9280002@hp-ptp.HP.COM> you write:
>> >>
>> >>  My theory for the "backwards" speech is the actors spoke their lines
>> >>  backwards pronouncing the sound of each word backwards. Then when 
>> >>  editing, they reversed it. You got the sound of backwards speech but 
>> >>  could understand what they said.
>> >>

> >I agree very much with John C.'s theory with a minor difference.  And I have
> >read about instances of people doing this before.

> >The actors speak their lines like normal.  Then these lines are played 
> >backwards and the actors listen to them trying to discern patterns and then
> >they speak these phonetic patterns and they are recorded.  Finally 
> >these patterns are reversed giving a backwards sounding effect but the sounds
> >sound like words so we recognize them.

> >I think David Lynch would opt for this more brute force method rather than
> >using a digitizer of any sort.


There's an even easier way to do this, using guitar effects.  In fact, there
is a box made by <company_x> that reverses attacks, and strangely enough
if you plug a microphone through it you end up sounding just like the people
in the dream sequence. 

Easy and cheap!

--
Archer Sully       |  I'm 27 years old.  That's 54 in Nerd Years
(archer@esd.sgi.com)  | -- Keith Rienzi

Something my wife picked up on:  in episode 3 when Ben &
Jerry arrive at One Eyed Jack's, Ben *definitely* slips
something into the hand or glove of the "receptionist"
waiting at the dock (brrr - pretty chilly I bet).
It could just be a tip, but it's so subtle, it would seem to be
more sinister -- perhaps Ben is keeping the ladies in coke?

"Anyone for a warmup?" "yeah" "sure" "you bet" "uh huh"
-- Mark Crovella Dept of Computer Science, University of Rochester, Rochester NY 14627 UUCP: {decvax,rutgers}!rochester!crovella ARPA: crovella@cs.rochester.edu

In article <308@sunee.waterloo.edu> abelinsk@sunee.waterloo.edu (Avi Belinsky) writes:
> >
> >I'm back from re-watching the fourth episode of TP, and here are
> >more of my observations/comments/speculations...
> >
> >1) Audrey tells Agent Cooper " I understood her (laura) better than the 
> >   rest.  What does this mean?

Given her peephole into Daddy's secret life and her comment about
how "he used to sing to her", Audrey may very well have understood
Laura better than most of the people in TP. Of course, she's also
trying to ensure future contact with "dreamy" Agent Cooper, who also
takes his coffee black.

> >4) When Albert gets hit by Truman he lands face first lying down on
> >   Laura and he says "How appropriate!"  What does Albert mean?

It's sarcasm. He's castigating Truman for punching him in the morgue
so that he lands on Laura's corpse. Pretty hypocritical, all in all.

> >10) The killer washed his hands. (from Albert's report) Who would do this?
> >    Was it Leland (blood on his hands in episode 3) Big Ed (greasy hands
> >    from working in a garage: doubtful, he's a book house boy) or just
> >    the killer trying to get the blood off his hands.  I doubt this one
> >    too.  They wouldn't have mentioned it if it wasn't significant.

If the killer wrapped Laura in plastic to avoid getting her blood on
things, wouldn't he have washed his hands too? The significant thing
in this scene was Albert's interpretation of the pumice dust on Laura's
neck as meaning that the killer had "leaned in for a kiss, like this"
after killing her. It tells you something about the mentality of the
murderer. 

> >11) The animal bites on Laura's neck and shoulders.  What could this be
> >    from, and what the &^%&^ does it mean?

They looked like cat bites and scratches. Cats have long been the
favorite familiars of witches. Also, "Kitty got a new collar" in
Laura's diary may be literal.

> >12) Why the letter J in Laura's stomach?  Was she eating the killer's
> >    name in Alpha-bits? :-)

The letter "J" was on a piece of plastic partially dissolved by stomach
acids. Does Upjohn manufacture any drugs in plastic rather than gelatin
capsules? Or is this just another "J" for the list?

> >16) When a motorcycle rides up to Ed/Nadine's house, Ed says it's James.
> >    Nadine says "James who?"  How can she forget?  Is there another 
> >    bike-riding James?

Nadine, now overjoyed at successfully inventing the 100 percent silent
drape runner, is still a wacko who can't remember her own nephew's
name. It takes her a few seconds to figure it out.

Dave Mack

In article <1990Apr30.010212.23591@alembic.acs.com> csu@alembic.acs.com (Dave Mack) writes:
|In article <308@sunee.waterloo.edu> abelinsk@sunee.waterloo.edu (Avi Belinsky) writes:
|>11) The animal bites on Laura's neck and shoulders.  What could this be
|>    from, and what the &^%&^ does it mean?
|They looked like cat bites and scratches. Cats have long been the
|favorite familiars of witches. Also, "Kitty got a new collar" in
|Laura's diary may be literal.

Well, heck.  Maybe they *should* turn this into a witch hunt.
It's a full moon, there's an "evil" in the woods.  I know...witches
aren't always (or even usually) evil.  However, TV witches almost
always are.  Except for Samantha Stevens...
-- - Barry gingrich%tisl@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu OR bgingric@Intrepid.ECE.UKans.EDU

Here are two items that I have not heard mentioned. 

A lot of earlier postings referred to Laura and her cousin having
different color eyes and whether the body on the beach had this or that
eye color.  While watching the tape, I noticed that in the video of
Laura, and in James' flashback of her, that Laura's hair is blond.
However, the body on the beach and on the coroner's table has brown hair
(...just like Laura's cousin). I was wondering why nobody has brought
this up during the "Laura and her cousin changed place" speculations.

Also, did anybody else notice that "Blackie" (the "hostess" at One Eyed
Jack's that Jerry recites poetry to) showed up at Laura's funeral?

In article <6821@blake.acs.washington.edu> dadler@blake.acs.washington.edu (David Adler) writes:
> >Colville also has what's thought to be an internationally known family 
> >restaurant The Farm House - overlooking the river and valley - I recommend
> >it highly.  

How's the cherry pie there?  Good cup of coffee?


-- When I was [in Canada] I found their jokes like their * Tom Neff roads -- not very long and not very good, leading to a * tneff@bfmny0.UU.NET little tin point of a spire which has been remorselessly obvious for miles without seeming to get any nearer. -- Samuel Butler.

In article <12758@ttidca.TTI.COM>, lester@ttidca.TTI.COM (jim) writes:
> > In article <JYM.90Apr26103144@eris.berkeley.edu> jym@eris.berkeley.edu (Jym Dyer) writes:
>> >>.-.
>> >>|T|he thing to do is make sure all your Neilsen family friends get
>> >>`-'addicted to the show.  And talk it up to all your friends, in
>> >>   particular, your friends who don't like television!
> >   Right!  Seemingly lots of folks watch Cheers and tape Peaks, since Peaks
> > is an instant classic and we'll want to watch it over and over (sometimes
> > my mind bends back).  Can Nielson or other ratings determine if Peaks is
> > being watched (on tape delay), or are they only attuned to the channel sel-
> > ector for live broadcast?

We were a 'Nielson household' last year. Here's how it works. You are
RANDOMLY selected. They ask you if you're willing to do it. They send
you a 'scorecard'. You mark what you watched. NB: the directions state
you should mark a show as watched even if you tape it and watch it
later. I can't remember if they had ua do this for a week or a month.

IMHO, we should bring r.a.t and a.t.t-p to the network execs
attention. It's a free guage of what 'technically-oriented' people
watch. Whether you're a student or someone in industry, face it, we
have (or will have) above average incomes. Sony, BMW, and Sam Adams'
don't want to advertise to shoe salesmen.

> > Can Nielson or other ratings determine if Peaks is
> > being watched (on tape delay), or are then only attuned to the channel sel-
> >ector for live brooadcast?

A few weeks ago I was out on a bicycle ride with someone who mentioned that a
relative participated with a rating service and he told us that the
rating service
will modify the VCR so that they can pick up what channel it is tuned to also.


Rich Whalen

In article <1990Apr27.210924.12137@uokmax.uucp> gejohann@uokmax.uucp (Gene Edward Johannsen) writes:
> >Just watched the episode again and have a couple things to point out:
> >1) Audrey did not confirm or deny that the note meant 'One Eyed Jacks'.  The 
> >exchange went something like this:
> >Cooper "Why did you write the note?"
> >Audrey "I thought you could use the help"
> >Cooper "What is One Eyed Jacks?"

I think the lines prior to these are perhaps more important.  Cooper asks
her to write her name.  He then states 'you slipped this note under my door' 
or something like that.  Audrey says 'I did?'; I could almost hear the gears
grinding in her head.  Maybe she didn't have anything to do with the note, 
but thinks this is her opportunity to get close to Cooper.

In article <7009@odin.corp.sgi.com> archer@sgi.com (Archer Sully) writes:
> >There's an even easier way to do this, using guitar effects.  In fact, there
> >is a box made by <company_x> that reverses attacks, and strangely enough
> >if you plug a microphone through it you end up sounding just like the people
> >in the dream sequence. 

I have one of these boxes.  It's called a Midiverb II by Alesis and it
has all sorts of "reverse" programs but none of them sound the way the
speech on the show did.  These boxes tend to reverse the sounds
*after* they've been made so you get someone saying "peanut" for
example and then immediately afterward you hear "tuneap."

Lynch went the more difficult route - the actors learned the lines
backwards and recorded them that way.

+---------------------- Is there any ESCAPE from NOISE? ---------------------+
|  |   |\       | jsd@gaffa.mit.edu | ZIK ZAK - We make everything you need, |
| \|on |/rukman | jsd@umass.bitnet  | and you need everything we make.       |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Hey, I was wondering how the series turned out...I never caught the ending...

Is there gonna be a series now?

Can you tell I don't get a chance to watch much tv?

jd

In article <7008@odin.corp.sgi.com> archer@sgi.com (Archer Sully) writes:
> >Away up high in the Himalayas
> >There lives a cat they call the Dalai Lama.
> >A thousand monks at his direction
> >practicing things like astral projection.
> >
> >Dalai...Dalai Lama.
> >
> >- Alex Chilton.

In his palace, called the Potalla(?)
A thousand rooms, in a thousand colors.
He had a really far out decorator.

I love that song. Back to your regularly scheduled digression. Friday-to-
Wednesday never seemed so long *before* TP.

-- George Ferguson ARPA: ferguson@cs.rochester.edu University of Rochester UUCP: {decvax,rutgers}!rochester!ferguson Rochester NY 14627 VOX: (716) 275-2527

In article <308@sunee.waterloo.edu> abelinsk@sunee.waterloo.edu (Avi Belinsky) writes:

> > 4) When Albert gets hit by Truman he lands face first lying down on
> >    Laura and he says "How appropriate!"  What does Albert mean?

Well, I would surmise that Albert get a little too much pleasure from
his work...

> > 23) In the preview of next week's episode we see a llama in one scene
> >     with Cooper and Truman.  LLama <---> Dalai Lama ???


Maybe that note Cooper got should have read "Llama with the one 'l'".

> >    A one-L lama is a priest,
> >    A two-L llama is a beast.
> >    And I will bet my top pajama
> >    There isn't any three-L lllama.

Hmmmnnn....

   A one-L lama is a priest,
   A two-L llama is a beast.
   And a three-L lllama is a hell of a fire.


-- _ _ _ The Rule of Fives: All things happen in 5s or multiples of / ) ) ) / 5 or are in some way directly or indirectly related to 5. / / / __/_> "The harder I look the more I find this to be true." / ( (_/(_) \ -Malaclypse the Elder, KSC

In article <1990Apr21.045540.19419@agate.berkeley.edu> sally@eris.berkeley.edu (S. A. Wilson) writes:
> >
> >I am copying this without premission:
> >Sacramento Bee, Fri. April 20, 90, Hollywood Hotline, Marilyn Beck.
> >
> >David Lynch's "Twin Peaks" has gotten off to such a
> >spectacular start that ABC has already ordered several
> >more scripts for fall. .........


Several days ago, there was an article in the New York Times (I believe)
Business section about TP losing more and more of its audience
with each episode, and that it was having a tough time
competing with "Cheers". ABC stated that reports that they had decided
to pick up the show for next fall were not true. They said no decision
about renewing the show would be made until the show completed its
initial run, the last episode airing on May 21. The article went
on to state that the show has already been considered a success for ABC,
boosting ratings in that timeslot by 30%. The article also quoted several
industry insiders who heavily criticized ABC for putting the show up
against "Cheers", in direct competition for the same audienece demographic.
However, there was also a statement from a TP staffer that if ABC
doesn't renew, they have been "assured" that another network (Fox?) will
pick up the show.

> >Well, I sure hope that this represents the low point for the series.
> >
> >The scene with Leland
> >Palmer on the coffin was the only Lynchian bit of inspired weirdness,
> >and because it was the only one, it stuck out like a sore thumb and
> >ended up looking stupid rather than inspired.


You might have missed something that I liked very early
in the scene at the diner, when Cooper met with Truman, Big Ed, and the
deputy.  A second waitress was at the counter, using a napkin-holder
to mock the way Leland Palmer rode up and down on his daughter's
casket.  The way the customers laughed at it was pretty creepy.

Also, did anyone else note how, after Cooper asked Big Ed how long he'd
been in love with [Peggy Lipton character], the group fell silent for
a moment until Truman slid the check over to Big Ed and said something
to the effect of "Looks like this one's on you."  It was as though they'd
had a bet going that Cooper would detect that very fact.

I thought this episode was generally better than the other, non-Lynch
directed one.  But I agree that Lynch makes a world of difference.

In article <308@sunee.waterloo.edu> abelinsk@sunee.waterloo.edu (Avi Belinsky) writes:
> >1) Audrey tells Agent Cooper " I understood her (laura) better than the 
> >   rest.  What does this mean?
> >
It means that when Laura was tutoring Johnny Horne in his room, she
would talk to him and tell him her problems -- his condition makes
him a real safe person
for her to talk to. Audrey could listen in easily from her secret
room. Thus Audrey "understands" Laura cause she's gotten to hear Laura
think, but they still aren't really friends. I bet this is where Audrey
heard Laura talk about Audrey's father.

> >
> >10) The killer washed his hands. (from Albert's report) Who would do this?
> >    Was it Leland (blood on his hands in episode 3) Big Ed (greasy hands
> >    from working in a garage: doubtful, he's a book house boy) or just
> >    the killer trying to get the blood off his hands.  I doubt this one
> >    too.  They wouldn't have mentioned it if it wasn't significant.
> >
I think this is just the killer getting the blood off his/her hands.
I think the whole point of this clue is to tell us that the killer 
kissed Laura after she was dead -- more good weird stuff.

> >13) Cooper tells Diane that he thinks he can get some property that will
> >    be reasonably priced.  Is he referring to the fact that Twin Peaks
> >    is a cheap place to live, or that someone (Ben Horne) is driving down
> >    the price so they can buy it all up?
> >
I think Cooper has just fallen in love with Twin Peaks, so he's thinking
about buying property there as an investment, or as a place to live
sooner or later. As for the "real cheap" line -- have you ever 
compared real estate prices between big cities and small towns? I assume
that since he's an FBI agent he's based in a large city, where prices
are naturally higher than in any smaller town.

I think this is just another innocuous bit Lynch has thrown in showing
how much Cooper likes this town.

> >16) When a motorcycle rides up to Ed/Nadine's house, Ed says it's James.
> >    Nadine says "James who?"  How can she forget?  Is there another 
> >    bike-riding James?
> >
Why does this surprise everyone so much? Nadine's elevator pretty much
doesn't go to the top all the time, and this is just another clue.
Also, I think Nadine somewhat resents James' existence, since it is 
a distraction for Ed and keeps him from spending more time with her.
If you want to get into more speculation, I wouldn't be surprised to
find out Ed is actually James' father.

> >19) Dr. Jacoby: "I'm a terrible person"  Why? Did he kill Laura?  Did
> >    he allow the murder?  Did he allow Laura to get into drug dealing?
> >    Is he referring to the fact that he just doesn't give a shit about
> >    the people in Twin Peaks?

Did we all see Jacoby's trench coat at the cemetery? It sure looked like
what the person watching Leo/Bobby/Mike in the woods was wearing. I     
think Jacoby wanders at night a lot, to the cemetery in this episode, 
watching Leo/Bobby in the last one, and I bet he
was also watching James and Donna when they buried the necklace.

But if Jacoby's not the one secretly watching stuff in the woods, it
has to be the Log Lady.
> >
> >20) Dr. Jacoby: "I thought no one could reach me again."  Who reached
> >    him the first time?

This just meant he was tired of everything, and he didn't think he would
care about anything again, like he did when he was a young, idealistic
psychiatrist.

Great show, great newsgroup! Hmm -- "This must be where
newsgroups go when they die."

- Chris

In article <10580@sun.udel.edu> conrad@sun.udel.edu (Jon Conrad) writes:
> >Chris, your theory just won't hold up (that a day passed between the
> >roadhouse incident and Mike and Bobby's conversation in jail).  

No, no, you misunderstood: I suggested that a day passed between the first
time that Bobby was questioned and the fight at the Roadhouse (not between
the fight and the conversation in jail).  It was at this time that Bobby
probably got the first $10,000 to Leo (perhaps at the Roadhouse?)

-- Chris Andersen (..!uunet!sequent!toontown!chris) "life is like arriving late for a movie, having to figure out what was going on without bothering everybody with a lot of questions, and then being unexpectedly called away before you find out how it ends."

In article <13324@csli.Stanford.EDU> podlozny@csli.stanford.edu (Ann Podlozny) writes:

> >Is anyone else a little bothered that Cooper 'forgot' the name
> >of the killer?  Contrasted with his memory of everyone's police
> >record, and other little details, I found it a little strange.  Not
> >strange good, though, just an annoying plot trick.  I guess he
> >probably thought he would never forget it, so he didn't write it down,
> >but I'm pretty sure he did remember it when he called HST; you don't
> >just FORGET something that important...



I also thought that this was a cheap plot device, worthy
of a lesser night-time soap, but not worthy of TWIN PEAKS. It
was handled in a very heavy-handed manner, too.


Mike Carey

Here's a good twisted theory. Laura's death was an accident. She
had been tied up and assaulted in the railway car, got loose
and escaped and was wandering around in shock when *BAM* Leo
hits her with his truck on his way home. He wraps her up in
the construction plastic wrap we've seen he has and dumps her
body on the shore. He doesn't at all want to get involved and
report the accident cuz of his cocaine sideline biz.

Of course who originally tied her up and assaulted her are open
to question. One-armed Mike? Killer Bob? Dr. Jacoby? And I guess
another problem was that the forensics guy said she died of many
small wounds, not a massive blow. Hmmmmm......

>>> >>> yahnke@macc.wisc.edu <<<

> > Excerpts from netnews.alt.tv.twin-peaks: 29-Apr-90 Re: Who did it Dave
> > Mack@alembic.acs.co (611)

> > o Dr. Hayward, on Thursday night, manages to kidnap not only Laura...
> > Jeez, I hope I'm as energetic as Dr. Hayward when I'm his age.

> > I think we're looking for someone slightly younger.

This is a good point.  He certainly couldn't have done it alone.  But we
already know that Laura had sex with three men the night she was killed,
so there must have been other people involved in any case.

My reasoning was as follows: digging up the locket is a key event,
because we know whoever did it killed Laura Palmer, because of Sarah
Palmer's psychic vision in the pilot.  It is, in fact, the only point
where we know we've seen the killer.

Now, who knew where the locket was?  Only James Hurley and Donna
Hayward.  Other people may have known where James and Donna were, but no
one knows that they hid the locket there!  (I.e., even if there's
someone in Twin Peaks with a metal detector he or she wouldn't have know
to use it in that place).  Unless some unknown person was standing there
and watching them as they buried it -- but in that case we can't
conclude anything about the killer.

So assume we can use the locket burial as a clue.  We know James didn't
dig it up, since he was in jail.  He also didn't tell anyone where it
was, since he was being barked at by Bobby and Mike.  But Donna was
picked up by her father, and he suddenly seemed real friendly.  That was
odd, as was his other behavior, and Lynch cut off the dialogue before
they'd finished their ride.  Dr. Hayward could easily have said, what
about that locket?  He could've convinced her that the police would find
it, and they should go dig it up.  (Or, he could've gotten her to
describe the location, and called the killer to go dig it up, using his
metal detector or excellent nighttime tracking skills.)

Actually, on reflection, I don't think it was Hayward that actually dug
up the locket -- I recall him being shown at home with his wife shortly
before Sarah's vision.  But he must have a strong connection to the
killer.  As must Dr. Jacoby, since he received the locket from whoever
dug it up.  (Unless there are two lockets, not too unlikely since so
many other things are doubled.)

I also believe that Laura Palmer was being watched by Truman and Pete
Martell.  Either she was working with the Bookhouse Boys, hence the sign
in Cooper's dream, or they were keeping track of her involvement in
drugs.
(This explains why Big Ed asked Truman to not tell Cooper everything). 
That is why Pete said ``She's dead'' and Truman knew who he meant right
away.

-- J

In article <461@visual.UU.NET> rwh@visual.UU.NET (Robert W. Holzel) writes:

> >Also, did anyone else note how, after Cooper asked Big Ed how long he'd
> >been in love with [Peggy Lipton character], the group fell silent for
> >a moment until Truman slid the check over to Big Ed and said something
> >to the effect of "Looks like this one's on you."  It was as though they'd
> >had a bet going that Cooper would detect that very fact.

The snatch of dialog before Cooper got to the table pretty much
indicated this.  Something to the effect of

Big Ed:" There's no way he'll figure it out"

HST:" If he does, then you're buying "

Darryl Cate

cate@csc.ti.com"I think it's time for a donut"

carey@sunscreen (Mike Carey) writes:
> >podlozny@csli.stanford.edu (Ann Podlozny) writes:
> >
>> >>Is anyone else a little bothered that Cooper 'forgot' the name
>> >>of the killer?  Contrasted with his memory of everyone's police
>> >>record, and other little details, I found it a little strange.  Not
>> >>strange good, though, just an annoying plot trick.  
> >I also thought that this was a cheap plot device, worthy
> >of a lesser night-time soap, but not worthy of TWIN PEAKS. It
> >was handled in a very heavy-handed manner, too.
> >

It was my assumption that in his dream the killer was never explicitly
named to Cooper: Laura Clone whispers something in his ear, and in that
dream-like way he knows she's telling him the name of the killer, but he
never really "hears" it, i.e. it doesn't quit click yet.  Its not a
question of memory.

When he calls the Sheriff, he's saying that he knows somewhere in his
subconscious whodunnit, and he's giving himself hints via his dreams, but
he doesn't know explicitly who the killer is.  _That_ information is still
below the surface.
---
--
Tim Shippert                                 shippert@tybalt.caltech.edu
Persons attempting to find a motive in this post will be prosecuted;
persons attempting to find a moral in it will be banished; persons
attempting to find a point in it will be shot.  -M. Twain (paraphrased)

In article <13329@csli.Stanford.EDU> podlozny@csli.stanford.edu (Ann Podlozny) writes:
> >In article <19067.26380b48@merrimack.edu> rand@merrimack.edu writes:
> >}What is the significance of Cooper telling HST and the dip they were
> >                                                    ^^^^^^^
> >}in his dream?
> >
> >the dip?  that's not fair; I think Lucy deserves more credit than that.



I agree. Remember during the pilot, when Bobby and James
are talking within earshot of Lucy at the police station? She
pretended to ignore them while all the time typing everything
that they said.
This manuever doesn't necessarily qualify her for genius,
but it does indicate that she's not exactly "dippy".


Mike Carey

In article <767HT2Y@xavier.swarthmore.edu> awp92@campus.swarthmore.edu writes:
> >I still don't really feel like I understand the "sometimes my arms bend back"
> >thing.  As far as I remember, the interchange goes something like this: "How do
> >you like my cousin?  She looks just like Laura Palmer, doesn't she?"  "But she
> >*is* Laura Palmer, aren't you?"  "I feel like I know her *but* sometimes my
> >arms bend back."  The arms bending back are *preventing* her from knowing/being
> >Laura Palmer.

Interesting point.  Remember that James told Donna that it was like
there were two Laura Palmers -- remember the bit about her eyes
clearing, and it being Laura again?  The Laura who had her arms bent
back was not the Laura that everyone knew.

As for the killer, I don't see how it could *not* be Leo Johnson.
There's an awful lot to explain if it's not -- especially his comment
to Bobby -- "Maybe some day I will".  The blood, the lie about being in
Butte, the sadism, the plastic wrap -- if it's a garden path, it's sure
a good one.

Incidentally, wasn't it Jacques in the woods with Leo?  It's not the
one-armed man -- that shadowed figure has the arm that the guy is
missing.  It's one of the few things about him that can be made out
clearly.
-- Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com "Starting in a hollowed log of wood -- some thousand miles up a river, with an infinitesimal prospect of returning! I ask myself 'Why?' and the only echo is 'damned fool! ... the Devil drives!" -- Sir Richard Francis Burton in correspondence to Monckton Miles, 1863

In article <9004301340.AA25568@gaffa.MIT.EDU> gaffa!jsd (Jon Drukman) writes:
> >Lynch went the more difficult route - the actors learned the lines
> >backwards and recorded them that way.

Yes, yes.  I don't mean to prolong this backwards speech discussion
but...

Take a look at the video tape.  Look at how the dwarf rolls his eyes
up after most of the sentences.  As if he were trying to remember how
to say the sentence backwards.

*I* thought it was funny.

-Sho
-- sho@physics.purdue.edu <<-- Then again, I have a lame sense of humor.

In article <23478@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> v027ef3u@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu writes:
> >1) Laura's arms were mighty flexible when Albert (give me tools or give me
> >death, better yet, give me both!) was with her in the morgue.  Hmm... anybody
> >hear of rigor mortis after at least 2+ days of being stone dead?

Rigor mortis wears off pretty quickly -- certainly less than 2.5 days.
-- Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com FROM THE FOOL FILE: "The negro slaves of the South are the happiest, and, in some sense, the freest people in the world. The children and the aged and infirm work not at all, and yet have all the comforts and neccessaries of life provided for them." -- George Fitzhugh, CANNIBALS ALL! OR, SLAVES WITHOUT MASTERS, 1857

Ann Podlozny writes:

> > Is anyone else a little bothered that Cooper 'forgot' the name
> > of the killer?  Contrasted with his memory of everyone's police
> > record, and other little details, I found it a little strange.  Not
> > strange good, though, just an annoying plot trick.  I guess he
> > probably thought he would never forget it, so he didn't write it down,
> > but I'm pretty sure he did remember it when he called HST; you don't
> > just FORGET something that important...

Yes, it was annoying as a plot device but consistent with my
dream experiences.  Frequently in my dreams in which I appear as
a participant (rather than just observing), I experience the
dream from an out-of-the-body view point, so that what I
remember seeing/hearing may be no more privileged than what--if
you indulge me for the sake of this description--other dream
participants might see.

And often, there is a certain hollowness in the world my mind
constructs for me... the surfaces that I see are all there but
not the actual objects.  In the same way, I may recall with
perfect clarity being whispered something but not know what
was whispered.

All this could be just my weirdness... but I found the dream
sequence in episode 3 (4/19) so convincing that while watching
the scene, I remember thinking that Cooper will not remember
what was whispered to him by Laura/cousin, only to be somewhat
surprised later when he tells Truman on the phone that he knew
who the killer was.

Peter Lee writes,
> >Yes, it was annoying as a plot device but consistent with my
> >dream experiences.  Frequently in my dreams in which I appear as
> >a participant (rather than just observing), I experience the
> >dream from an out-of-the-body view point, so that what I
> >remember seeing/hearing may be no more privileged than what--if
> >you indulge me for the sake of this description--other dream
> >participants might see.

I might add that there is more to dreams than just sight and sound.  I
found it very easy to believe
the "extra information"  Cooper provides at breakfast.  i.e. He knew
that Bob shot Mike simply because knowing it was a part of his dream. 
It was not something we saw because it was not something that could be
filmed.  I would agree that it is annoying in a TV show, but not that it
is hard to believe.

Doug van der Veen
dv0o@andrew.cmu.edu

In article <19075.263c09ed@merrimack.edu> rand@merrimack.edu writes:
> >IMHO, we should bring r.a.t and a.t.t-p to the network execs
> >attention. It's a free guage of what 'technically-oriented' people
> >watch. Whether you're a student or someone in industry, face it, we
> >have (or will have) above average incomes. Sony, BMW, and Sam Adams'
> >don't want to advertise to shoe salesmen.

Well, I got called by one of those "phone survey" folks
outta New Jersey and some of the questions were about
Twin Peaks..."Would you like to see more episodes of 
Twin Peaks?"...and the like.  I guess that this means 
that ABC is trying to figure out whether or not they 
should renew.

Maybe someone could post ABC's address again and some 
of us could write to them *before* it's in trouble in 
the ratings.
-- - Barry gingrich%tisl@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu OR bgingric@Intrepid.ECE.UKans.EDU

In article <13135@venera.isi.edu> raveling@isi.edu (Paul Raveling) writes:
> >
> >In article <90116.230606CRANER@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu>,
> >CRANER@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (Richard S. Crane) writes:
>> >> ... just want to offer Agent Cooper's
>> >> comment on the huckleberry pie:
>> >>     "I bet this is where pies go when they die..."
>> >> as the best of this hour.

 In episode four, both at the pie scene and at breakfast, Cooper
failed to say his famous "Great Coffee!" line.  What happened?  the
coffee wasn't good?

+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Asher Binyamin Samuels  abs@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu  Abfrl, nera'g lbh?    |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+

In article <308@sunee.waterloo.edu>, abelinsk@sunee.waterloo.edu (Avi Belinsky) writes...

} 2) Cooper says that Truman and Lucy wre in his dream.  They weren't in
} the dream we saw in episode 3.  Would this have given too much away?
} Significance?

Cooper mentioned lots of things that we didn't see in the dream sequence.
Another example is that Mike shot Killer Bob.

} 4) When Albert gets hit by Truman he lands face first lying down on
} Laura and he says "How appropriate!"  What does Albert mean?

Just confirming his opinion that Harry is a dumb hayseed sheriff.

} 7) When Hank's parole officer is talking to Norma he says that he will
} be granted parol tomorrow "barring any unforseen circumstances".  
} Are these circumstances going to happen or is it just part of the 
} parole officer's high-falutin' language that had me cracking up.

Probably standard issue comment. The officer certainly couldn't guarantee
that the parole board's decision would go a particualr way, could he.
He was giving his opinion based on the behavior of Jennings.

} 10) The killer washed his hands. (from Albert's report) Who would do this?
} ...They wouldn't have mentioned it if it wasn't significant.

I think you're reading too much into it.

} 15) Nadine seems to be in love with Big Ed again. ("last night was great",
} "you came back to me", etc.)

She was never *out* of love with him, in my opinion.

} 16) When a motorcycle rides up to Ed/Nadine's house, Ed says it's James.
} Nadine says "James who?" How can she forget? Is there another bike-riding
} James?

No, she's just being flakey.

} 18) Was Andrew murdered ?  Does it relate to this murder or is it just
} Catherine/Ben's power struggle for the mill?

I think he was murdered, and that it was part of Catherine and Ben's plot
to get their hands on the Mill and the land.

} 19) Dr. Jacoby: "I'm a terrible person"  Why? Did he kill Laura?  Did
} he allow the murder?  Did he allow Laura to get into drug dealing?
} Is he referring to the fact that he just doesn't give a shit about
} the people in Twin Peaks?

The last suggestion.

} 20) Dr. Jacoby: "I thought no one could reach me again."  Who reached
} him the first time?

Probably someone early in his life. Perhaps whoever it was who got him
interested in psychiatry. At any rate, most likely irrelevant.

} 21) Truman to Josey Packer: "nothing will happen to you while I'm
} around" Is something going to happen when he isn't around? (like in
} Canada checking out the One Eyed Jack)

I *really* think you're reading way too much into the most insignificant
of lines. This is a common phrase in this sort of situation. It's a way
of saying, "I won't let anything bad happen to you."

} 22) The screenwriter listed in the credits is Harley Peyton.  Does he
} really exist or is this another one of Lynch's jokes about Twin Peaks
} being similar to Peyton Place.

No, it's a joke about the bike-riding characters.

-- "How different in my native willage. Soft music. Wiolins. The happy people sitting on their balalaikas, playing their samovars." --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, "The Mill", Maynard, MA) UUCP: ...!decwrl!ruby.enet.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%ruby.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

In article <Apr.28.09.07.33.1990.12192@toccata.rutgers.edu>, rlr@toccata.rutgers.edu (Rich Rosen) writes...

}}} Here's something that I think nobody has mentioned...the sheriff's
}}} name is Harry S. Truman. I seem to remember that there was a U.S.
}}} president named Harry S. Truman, sometime in the late 1800's (I
}}} think??). Is this a coincidence or is Lynch trying to tell us something?

}} God help us. I knew the state of American education was dismal, but...

} The very next line from Adam's article said something to the effect
} that "Also significant is the fact that 'Twin Peaks' and 'David Lynch'
} have the same number of letters... well, almost... I think this is VERY
} significant..."  Always check that parody bit, you know, before aiming
} and firing. :-)

What I noticed was after these two little bits was "but seriously..."
However, if the Truman bit was meant as a joke, the "sometime in the
late 1800's" part was excessive and unnecessary. If he'd left that out,
I would've taken the remark as a joke.

-- "How different in my native willage. Soft music. Wiolins. The happy people sitting on their balalaikas, playing their samovars." --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, "The Mill", Maynard, MA) UUCP: ...!decwrl!ruby.enet.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%ruby.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

In article <626HAAR@xavier.swarthmore.edu>, awp92@campus.swarthmore.edu writes...

} I think it's entirely possible that in the pilot there was a day either 1)
} between the discovery of Laura's body and Ronette walking out of the woods
} or 2) (much more likely) Ronette walking out of the woods and Cooper
} showing up.

No, sorry, there's no missing day. Laura's last entry in her diary was
quite clearly stated to be February 23rd. Cooper's first log entry was
at 11:30, Friday, February 24th.

Actually, there is a day mix-up later in the show. In the 4/19 episode,
shortly before Cooper's dream, which takes place on Sunday night,
Catherine Martell asks Pete "What did the FBI man want up here today?"
Cooper and Truman had actually gone up there to talk to Josie on
Saturday, not Sunday. And it was clear that she wasn't referring to an
unshown second visit, as Pete's reply referred to his trouble with a
fish in his percolator.

I've gone through all of the episodes to date and constructed a timeline
of events that I'll be posting as soon as I find the time to type it in.

-- "How different in my native willage. Soft music. Wiolins. The happy people sitting on their balalaikas, playing their samovars." --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, "The Mill", Maynard, MA) UUCP: ...!decwrl!ruby.enet.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%ruby.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

In article <24139@netnews.upenn.edu>, lewis@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Matt Lewis) writes...

} And BTW, check your VCRs, I say Lucy was the new girl at one-eyed jack's...

Well, I checked my VCR, and I say she isn't. Besides, she seems to work
24 hours a day at the police station. How can she possibly turn tricks
on the side, too? :-)

-- "How different in my native willage. Soft music. Wiolins. The happy people sitting on their balalaikas, playing their samovars." --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, "The Mill", Maynard, MA) UUCP: ...!decwrl!ruby.enet.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%ruby.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

In article <1990Apr26.234931.8135@alembic.acs.com> csu@alembic.acs.com (Dave Mack) writes:

} 1) During the Tibetan baseball scene, the entire TP Sheriff's Dept.
} (Truman, Andy, Hawk, and even Lucy) are in the woods with Cooper.
} Who is guarding Ronette Pulaski while this is going on?

Harry, Andy, Hawk, and Lucy are *not* "the entire TP Sheriff's Dept."
If you take another look at the pilot episode, you'll see that there
are *at least* two other officers (the one who goes into Room 107
at the school looking for Bobby, and then another who comes into the
same room to mumble something to the first one).

-- "How different in my native willage. Soft music. Wiolins. The happy people sitting on their balalaikas, playing their samovars." --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, "The Mill", Maynard, MA) UUCP: ...!decwrl!ruby.enet.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%ruby.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

In article <19067.26380b48@merrimack.edu>, rand@merrimack.edu writes...

} Speculation: Freeze-framing the picture of Norma's imprisoned husband,
} Frank,  looked like it could be the one armed man from Cooper's dream.
} (I know the name is different but the face looks similar.)

But I doubt that they are supposed to be the same, since the One-Armed
Man was wandering around the hospital while Hank Jennings is supposed
to be in prison. Besides, the name of the actor given in TV GUIDE who
plays Jennings is not the same as the one who plays the O-AM.

} While we're on the subject, anyone notice the inconsistency of Cooper
} telling HST that he saw the man from Mrs. Palmer's vision (who Hawk
} has sketched) in his dream when, according to next week's preview, he
} hasn't seen the sketch yet?

I suspect that what Cooper was saying was that *in his dream* Hawk had
sketched a picture of the man from Mrs. Palmer's vision. Next week, he
sketches it for real.

-- "How different in my native willage. Soft music. Wiolins. The happy people sitting on their balalaikas, playing their samovars." --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, "The Mill", Maynard, MA) UUCP: ...!decwrl!ruby.enet.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%ruby.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

In article <1990Apr29.192329.13502@uokmax.uucp>, gejohann@uokmax.uucp (Gene Edward Johannsen) writes...

} I just had a thought about the Norwegians.  What were they there to buy?
} Real Estate, obviously, but what Real Estate? Is it made clear? I assume
} that since Jerry and Piper Laurie (I'm great with names) are trying to
} get Josie to sell the Sawing Mill that that is what the Norwegians were
} going to buy.

You assume correctly (except that it was *Ben* and Catherine). In the
pilot, just before Ben and Leland have their meeting with the cheeseheads,
Leland says something like, "I suppose you aren't going to tell them that
you don't actually have the land yet," to which Ben replies, "I have it
from a reliable source that within a year, the Packard Mill is going to
go belly up. And we'll be able to pick it up for a song, one verse, no
chorus."

-- "How different in my native willage. Soft music. Wiolins. The happy people sitting on their balalaikas, playing their samovars." --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, "The Mill", Maynard, MA) UUCP: ...!decwrl!ruby.enet.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%ruby.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

What was Benjamin Horne doing at the morgue, saying that he thinks he
speaks for others?

In article <Apr.30.13.20.07.1990.13227@revenge.rutgers.edu> trudel@revenge.rutgers.edu (Jonathan D.) writes:
> >In article <308@sunee.waterloo.edu> abelinsk@sunee.waterloo.edu (Avi Belinsky) writes:
> >
>> >> 4) When Albert gets hit by Truman he lands face first lying down on
>> >>    Laura and he says "How appropriate!"  What does Albert mean?
> >
> >Well, I would surmise that Albert get a little too much pleasure from
> >his work...

I really thought his comment was about Truman's behavior. Along the lines
of 

"How predictable, the neanderthal responds with brute force"

Josh Hodas

-------------------------

Josh Hodas    (hodas@eniac.seas.upenn.edu)
4223 Pine Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104

(215) 222-7112   (home)
(215) 898-5423   (school office)

In article <1990Apr27.210924.12137@uokmax.uucp>, gejohann@uokmax.uucp
(Gene Edward Johannsen) writes:
> > 
> > 2) Leo is obviously lying about being in Butte.  He did call his wife
"at about
> > that time" but he also showed up too early the next day, as shown in
the pilot.

Maybe not.  Butte is only a few hours' drive from the northeast
corner of Washington.  Did anyone notice a mention of what time
his call was?  Even if was at midnight he could have driven back
with time to spare.


----------------
Paul Raveling
Raveling@isi.edu

My tape of the episode is out on loan, so I can't check this, but with
all the discussion regarding the ever-increasing probability that the
dead girl is not Laura, how did Cooper phrase his revelation to Harry
that he knew the identity of the killer?  Did he say, "I know who
killed Laura Palmer", because that would throw a krinkle into the
hypothesis, or did he just say he knew who the killer was.  As I
recall, he was very off-hand at breakfast about telling Harry and Lucy
that he forgot who it was, almost as if it didn't matter.  Seems odd
that he forgot, first if he now knew the killer's identity, would he
be able to fall back to sleep so easily?  And, as others have said,
why *could* it wait?  (he wouldn't have forgotten something so
important if he stayed awake till morning).  He seemed more excited
about the code in the dream than the killer's identity.

In article <5356@emory.mathcs.emory.edu> joe@mathcs.emory.edu (Joe Christy) writes:
> >The football on the hood of the car was an intact miniature, while
> >one that Leo was holding was a cut-open full-sized ball, filled with
> >cash. My bet is that whoever was behind the trees left it on the car
> >on their way out, following the high school stooges.

After seeing another comment about the football being on the hood of the 
car when Bobby and Snake got back to it, I watched this episode again.
The football was thrown by someone, you can see it fly through the air 
and hit the hood of the car right as the two get back to the car. Remember,
Leo told Bobby "Go out for a pass" (twice, I think) before they started
running. The ball was definitely thrown by someone, but whether it was the
same ball, and who threw it, I'm not sure, though Leo would seem to be the
one.

In article <oaC8U4y00jukRgJ3AD@cs.cmu.edu> Jon.Webb@CS.CMU.EDU writes:
 >I think
> >that following this conversation, while driving to pick up the bicycle,
> >he got Donna to tell him (Dr. Hayward ) where she hid the necklace,
which they went and
> >dug up together. (There's no way anyone could have found it just by
> >knowing the location unless they were there when James put the rock on
> >it; they would've had to be in the woods watching the two of them, and
> >it would be too malicious of Lynch to put the murderer just at the right
> >place in the woods at the right time.)

I came to similar conclusions about the, however I thought that James
dug it up. Why, you might ask?  Well, the necklace was buried at Donna's
request to protect James from the police, however James is in a secret
society with the police and really wouldn't fear them.  Also James
probably dug the necklace up to remember Laura by. He seems to have
genuine affection for Laura even though I believe that he was
investigating her to find out who  her cocaine connection is.  Along
those lines, does anyone else think that James is coozying up to Donna
to try to find the cocaine source?  About the necklace though,  I don't
think that Donna or Dr. Hayward would have any reason to dig up the
necklace.

Musings about the casino/brothel (One-eyed Jacks):
Where in the area under discussion is it legal to have a casino?  
I think in the U.S. you have to go south to Nevada to blow 
your wad.  In Canada only the government can run houses
of gambling (read: lotteries), and there are no casinos like
the one in TP.  

However, there are Indian reservations in some U.S. states 
where casinos are legal (e.g., Oklahoma, New York).  
The one in NY (recently in the news) straddles the US/Canada
border.  Could the casino in question be on an border-
spanning Indian reservation?  Plot implications? 

As has been pointed out, in the one-armed man's speech in 
the dream "chance house" may be code for casino, 
"convenience store" may be where one purchases "ladies of 
convenience" and it is "between two worlds" (on the
border). 

Isn't firewalking a tradition in some North American Indian
cultures?

In article <9004301340.AA25568@gaffa.MIT.EDU> jsd@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (Sassy Orange Downfall) writes:

> >In article <7009@odin.corp.sgi.com> archer@sgi.com (Archer Sully) writes:
>> >>There's an even easier way to do this, using guitar effects.  In fact, there
>> >>is a box made by <company_x> that reverses attacks, and strangely enough
>> >>if you plug a microphone through it you end up sounding just like the people
>> >>in the dream sequence. 

> >I have one of these boxes.  It's called a Midiverb II by Alesis and it
> >has all sorts of "reverse" programs but none of them sound the way the
> >speech on the show did.  These boxes tend to reverse the sounds
> >*after* they've been made so you get someone saying "peanut" for
> >example and then immediately afterward you hear "tuneap."

> >Lynch went the more difficult route - the actors learned the lines
> >backwards and recorded them that way.

The box that I'm thinking of is not a Midiverb II (which sounds kinda cool
anyway), but something different, and far older.  I think it was an 
Electro-Harmonix thing from the mid-70's, and all it did was reverse
the attack.  It didn't sample do a sample and hold, or a LIFO sample.

--
Archer Sully       |  I'm 27 years old.  That's 54 in Nerd Years
(archer@esd.sgi.com)  | -- Keith Rienzi

In article <461@visual.UU.NET> rwh@visual.UU.NET (Robert W. Holzel) writes:

> >Also, did anyone else note how, after Cooper asked Big Ed how long he'd
> >been in love with [Peggy Lipton character], the group fell silent for
> >a moment until Truman slid the check over to Big Ed and said something
> >to the effect of "Looks like this one's on you."  It was as though they'd
> >had a bet going that Cooper would detect that very fact.

That's what they were discussing before Cooper arrived.

--
Archer Sully       |  I'm 27 years old.  That's 54 in Nerd Years
(archer@esd.sgi.com)  | -- Keith Rienzi

Yo!  Dig what abelinsk@sunee.waterloo.edu (Avi Belinsky) sez:

[ Note: I don't have TP on tape; all this is from memory... ]

-Some observations/speculations about episode 4
-
-4) Bobby and the cross
-
-Some people have noted that Bobby was bending his arms back in front of
-the cross just before hs dad entered into meaningful dialogue with him.
-Actually I thought he was imitating Jesus on the cross, and this was
-martyr/Jesus symbolism.  

Funny, I got the impression he was about to *steal* the cross.  I didn't
see his arms bending backwards; damned 2-D TV.

-- David Bedno aka dave@sco.COM: Speaking from but not for SCO. "They'd probably get Robert DeNiro." - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar musing about who might be cast as him should his autobiography become a movie. From "Adweek's Marketing Week", 4/23/90, p. 64

Yo!  Dig what abelinsk@sunee.waterloo.edu (Avi Belinsky) sez:

[ still based on memories ]

-1) Audrey tells Agent Cooper " I understood her (laura) better than the 
-   rest.  What does this mean?

It's possible that Laura confided to Audrey about a lot of her feelings;
if not in exact detail.  They may not have been *friends*, but with the 
relationship between Laura and Johnny, certain bonds could have developed.

-7) When Hank's parole officer is talking to Norma he says that he will
-   be granted parol tomorrow "barring any unforseen circumstances".  
-   Are these circumstances going to happen or is it just part of the 
-   parole officer's high-falutin' language that had me cracking up.

I think it's a plot device to introduce conflict for Norma.  After all,
what would happen if she *didn't* show up to the parole hearing?  It would
keep the way clear(er) for her and Ed.

-10) The killer washed his hands. (from Albert's report) Who would do this?
-    Was it Leland (blood on his hands in episode 3) Big Ed (greasy hands
-    from working in a garage: doubtful, he's a book house boy) or just
-    the killer trying to get the blood off his hands.  I doubt this one
-    too.  They wouldn't have mentioned it if it wasn't significant.

Well, Albert would have mentioned everything, significant or not; it's in
his nature.  However, the simple fact that after however long, there was
a residue of the soap would be significant enough to mention.  

-11) The animal bites on Laura's neck and shoulders.  What could this be
-    from, and what the &^%&^ does it mean?
-
-12) Why the letter J in Laura's stomach?  Was she eating the killer's
-    name in Alpha-bits? :-)

Damned good questions.

-19) Dr. Jacoby: "I'm a terrible person"  Why? Did he kill Laura?  Did
-    he allow the murder?  Did he allow Laura to get into drug dealing?
-    Is he referring to the fact that he just doesn't give a shit about
-    the people in Twin Peaks?

That's it exactly.  He's feeling guilty about pretending to care about
his patients, when he doesn't really care if they live or die.

-20) Dr. Jacoby: "I thought no one could reach me again."  Who reached
-    him the first time?

Probably an ex-wife or something.  "... reach me again" is a bit more 
dramatic than "... ever reach me".

-21) Truman to Josey Packer: "nothing will happen to you while I'm around"
-    Is something going to happen when he isn't around? (like in Canada
-    checking out the One Eyed Jack)

Typical macho saying.  It establishes the gunslinger/backwoods mentality
of Truman, and shows that there's more than something casual (or physical) 
between him and Josey.

"Now if you'll excuse me, I have a lot of cutting and pasting to do."
(more or less)

-- David Bedno aka dave@sco.COM: Speaking from but not for SCO. "They'd probably get Robert DeNiro." - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar musing about who might be cast as him should his autobiography become a movie. From "Adweek's Marketing Week", 4/23/90, p. 64

Interesting that no one has mentioned next week's (May 5th-May 11th) TV Guide.
6 pages of fluff on `TP' (asks all the same questions, gives no answers),
tells us that `Bobby' isn't at all like the character he plays, and that
`James' is wondering why fame and fortune hasn't come tumbling his way yet.

But what's more interesting is the accompaning article about `Hackers'
talking about TV shows (on CompuServe, but ...) using their computers ...
clearly this is more than a coincidence.  Usenet killed Laura Palmer ...

BTW, the reason that there are so many deer antlers et al. is because 
David Lynch is a closet Laibach fan ... (figure THAT one out)



Greg Earle
Sun Microsystems, Inc. - JPL on-site Software Support
earle@poseur.JPL.NASA.GOV(direct)
earle@Sun.COM(indirect)

In article <13199@venera.isi.edu> raveling@isi.edu (Paul Raveling) writes:
<
<In article <1990Apr27.210924.12137@uokmax.uucp>, gejohann@uokmax.uucp
<(Gene Edward Johannsen) writes:
<> 
<> 2) Leo is obviously lying about being in Butte.  He did call his wife
<"at about
<> that time" but he also showed up too early the next day, as shown in
<the pilot.
<
<Maybe not.  Butte is only a few hours' drive from the northeast
<corner of Washington.  Did anyone notice a mention of what time
<his call was?  Even if was at midnight he could have driven back
<with time to spare.

But remember how surprised Shelly and Bobby were when they saw
Leo's truck.  Whatever the geography of the place is these two should
know how long it takes to drive from A to B.

Jan BielawskiInternet:jbielawski@ucsd.edu
Bitnet:jbielawski@ucsd.bitnet
Dept. of MathUUCP:jbielawski@ucsd.uucp
UCSD  ( {ucsd,sdcsvax}!{igrad1,sdcc6}!ma299ai )

In article <1990May1.145435.22119@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> kem@csri.toronto.edu (Kem Luther) writes:

<I think in the U.S. you have to go south to Nevada to blow 
<your wad.  In Canada only the government can run houses
<of gambling (read: lotteries), and there are no casinos like
<the one in TP.  

Maybe it's an illegal one.  It did *look* like a bar, I assume
you'd have to be an insider though to skip the alcohol drink part. :-)

<As has been pointed out, in the one-armed man's speech in 
<the dream "chance house" may be code for casino, 

I tend to agree with someone else's reading of it as:

"...one chants out between two worlds..."

If you read his lips(!!), you'll clearly(?) "see" the "nts" in "chants"
and the "t" in "out".

Jan BielawskiInternet:jbielawski@ucsd.edu
Bitnet:jbielawski@ucsd.bitnet
Dept. of MathUUCP:jbielawski@ucsd.uucp
UCSD  ( {ucsd,sdcsvax}!{igrad1,sdcc6}!ma299ai )

In article <803@Intrepid.ECE.UKans.EDU>, Barry Gingrich said:

> > ...I guess that this means that ABC is trying to figure out whether or
> > not they should renew. 

The Saturday 4/28 New York Times quoted and ABC spokesman as (a)
denying that a decision has been made yet, (b) saying "We have four
more episodes to air before we make our decisions about what shows
will be on the fall schedule... Bob [ABC Entertainment president
Robert Iger] will wait and see how the numbers are the next few
weeks," and (c) saying that ABC probably will not switch TP from its
current time slot prior to the end of its run on May 21.  (Yes, I
know, May 21st is a Monday, not a Thursday.  Don't blame me -- the NYT
article says the 21st.  They probably meant the 24th.)

The audience size for the 4/26 episode was down 14% from the 4/19
audience; and the 4/19 audience was 30% smaller than that of 4/12.

An unnamed NBC exec is quoted in the same article as speculating that
ABC will have to renew TP whether they want to or not: "They [ABC] are
coming into the up front selling season with a lot of momentum.  That
momentum has been built on the perception that they are on the brink
of beating us.  Renewing Twin Peaks would amount to a vote of
confidence that the perception that brought ABC to this point is
ture."  Huh?

The best news of all for the pro-renewal forces comes in a quote from
"a production executive associated with the show": "...we aren't
really worried about it.  If ABC doesn't pick it up, another network
will.  We have been assured of that."  Of course, a lot of people in
human history have been assured of things that didn't turn out to be
so... 

Having reported all that, let me say that I'm not an overly
enthusiastic supporter of renewal.  All indications are that neither
Lynch nor Frost want to make this show their life's obsession, and the
4/26 episode is pretty indicative of the fact that the show can suffer
pretty badly in someone else's hands, especially wrt direction.  I'd
rather see TP do eight good hours and leave than get renewed and
become Juat Another Mediocre TV Show.
-- William December Starr <wdstarr@athena.mit.edu> Get a load of him, he's so insane... You'd better get your coat, dear, It looks like rain.

A number of you have proposed theories based on sound-alike words
and phrases.  If Twin Peaks is has been close captioned, a decoder
may be the best way to find out one way or the other.

In the past, hearing impaired rec.arts.startrek posters have used
their captioning decoders to get the proper spelling of people's 
names and places.  Perhaps someone with a captioning decoder could
do the same service for alt.tv.twin-peaks.

--jtc
-- J.T. Conklin UniFax Communications Inc. ...!{uunet,ubc-cs}!van-bc!jtc, jtc@wimsey.bc.ca

In article <QaD_Wau00jukMkQm47@cs.cmu.edu> Jon.Webb@CS.CMU.EDU writes:
>> >> Excerpts from netnews.alt.tv.twin-peaks: 29-Apr-90 Re: Who did it Dave
>> >> Mack@alembic.acs.co (611)
> >
>> >> o Dr. Hayward, on Thursday night, manages to kidnap not only Laura...
>> >> Jeez, I hope I'm as energetic as Dr. Hayward when I'm his age.
> >
>> >> I think we're looking for someone slightly younger.
> >
> >This is a good point.  He certainly couldn't have done it alone.  But we
> >already know that Laura had sex with three men the night she was killed,
> >so there must have been other people involved in any case.

She was with Bobby from about six PM to about nine PM. They were not
necessarily studying algebra. This could account for one. She was
with James Hurley from about 9:30 to about 12:30, when she jumped off
his bike and ran away. They were not necessarily riding around for
three hours. Another possible lover. Finally, the tape she made for
Dr. Jacoby certainly sounded like a veiled invitation to meet her in
the woods. A third possible lover. Note that in his autopsy report,
Dr. Hayward says she had had sexual intercourse with *at least* three
men in the last 12 hours. Her killer could have been number four.
This assumes that she was indeed raped by the killer - neither Hayward
nor Albert mentioned that she had been raped. Perhaps this is simply
assumed. Only Ronette Pulaski has actually been described as having
been raped.

> >My reasoning was as follows: digging up the locket is a key event,
> >because we know whoever did it killed Laura Palmer, because of Sarah
> >Palmer's psychic vision in the pilot.  It is, in fact, the only point
> >where we know we've seen the killer.

I disagree that whoever dug up the locket is necessarily the killer.
Sarah Palmer screams quite a bit, and if this is her first "vision",
it's not surprising that she would scream. But I don't think it means
that the person who dug up the locket is the killer. 

My guess is that Dr. Jacoby was out there, in the woods, mourning
his lost Laura, and saw James and Donna bury the heart. Realizing
what it was (he *was* Laura's shrink, she would have explained the
split heart necklace to him), he waited until everyone was gone,
then retrieved it as a memento of Laura, something more personal
than her voice on a cassette tape.

> >I also believe that Laura Palmer was being watched by Truman and Pete
> >Martell.  Either she was working with the Bookhouse Boys, hence the sign
> >in Cooper's dream, or they were keeping track of her involvement in
> >drugs.

In Cooper's dream, she touched her nose, not the corner of her eye.
This is a very old gesture meaning "I know" or "it's a secret". She
wasn't a Bookhouse Boy (person?). As for Truman knowing she was
involved with drugs; he got pretty heated when Cooper suggested
that the white powder in the envelope was cocaine.

COOPER: "...I bet it will test positive for cocaine."
TRUMAN: "Impossible."
COOPER: "Haven't you ever been surprised before?"
TRUMAN: "Mr. Cooper, you didn't know Laura Palmer."

> >(This explains why Big Ed asked Truman to not tell Cooper everything). 
> >That is why Pete said ``She's dead'' and Truman knew who he meant right
> >away.

Any cop would want to know "where?" first. They want to get there
before anyone messes up the crime scene. Who isn't important. The
dead person isn't going anywhere. I don't think Truman knew who it
was until they turned the body over.

Of course, I could be wrong. One of the recurring themes in Lynch's
most personal works (Eraserhead and Blue Velvet) is that a nice
exterior hides vileness. Beneath the beautifully manicured lawn,
the insects are devouring each other. Jeffrey Beaumont succumbs
to the singer's entreaties and slaps her while they're making love.
And in Twin Peaks, the archetypal Nice Small Town Full Of Decent
Folks, everybody is committing adultery, selling drugs, visiting
the local whorehouse, etc.

While I don't believe that Dr. Hayward is the killer, I wouldn't 
be at all surprised if it turns out to be the person no one *wants*
it to be. Like Sheriff Truman, for example.

Dave Mack
god i'm long-winded

WDRE, the local new wave station, just starting playing the Twin Peaks
theme song.  Has anyone else heard Julee Cruse on the radio?  It's wierd
hearing her music mixed in with New Order and PiL.

Talk about being the height of popularity :-)

Brian
brian@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu

Cloverleaf-shift-one  dammit!

Brian Hoffman writes:
> >WDRE, the local new wave station, just starting playing the Twin Peaks
> >theme song.  Has anyone else heard Julee Cruse on the radio?  It's wierd
> >hearing her music mixed in with New Order and PiL.

This brings to mind a subject that I've been thinking about.  Is the
soundtrack music to the series available on some media other than from
the video?  This is the first time that I've wanted to buy the soundtrack
cd to a tv series!!

-Dave

Dave "mr question" McIntyre     |      "....say you're thinking about a plate
mcintyre@turing.cs.rpi.edu      |       of shrimp.....and someone says to
office : 518-276-8633|you 'plate,' or 'shrimp'......"

There has been no discussion, that I've read, about the
shadow that slowly drifted across the curtains in the dream sequence?

My guess is that it represents the bloody rag that was found.

I could put together some of the circumstances like this:

1 - The one armed man (or whoever he represents) interupted
the rape of Ronette (is that her name?) and shot the would-be
killer once.  This is why she is still alive.

2 - The killer was slightly wounded and the rag was used to stop his/her
bleeding.

3 - The killer must now be wounded, who could that be?
The other figure in the woods during the football scene was wearing
some kind of overcoat or cape.
Also, Dr. Jacoby was wearing a cape during the funeral scene.
Could he be hiding an injury?


Another silly guess as to who the midget represents:

midget == shrunken man == shrink == psychiatrist == Dr. Jacoby


larry

Recent postings made me think of something.  (Always dangerous.)

Ever notice how many men are PAIRED?  Cooper and Truman; Ben and Jerry;
Leland and Ben Horne (not together much, but they look so damn alike);
Jacques and his brother; Bobby and Mike; Bob (killer) and Mike (one
arm).  Then there are the solitaries: Big Ed, Pete, James, Jacoby, Leo.
The women aren't paired except with Laura one way or another: Donna,
Audrey, Norma, Ronette, Josie all had 1-1 relationships with her.

Diane, it's 7:31 AM.  I'm wearing new white boxer shorts; the brand is
Jockey.  The fit is good.  Make a note to check whether ducks on the
lake tend to pair up.

( I think we need a Twin Peaks Parody Contest, don't you??)

In article <9128@pt.cs.cmu.edu> nsv@infos.ri.cmu.edu (Nicole Vecchi) writes:
> >It not significant that the killer washed his hands--it's significant 
> >because of the type of soap used by the killer.  Albert said something 
> >about it being an industrial type soap; perhaps by finding identifying
> >businesses or people who buy or use this soap, they can narrow the field
> >of suspects.

Sawmill, Big Ed's Gas Farm, and Leo who washed his hands in one of the
epi's.  I still like Ed for the killing, Bookhouse Boy or not.

From article <1990May2.004916.7173@athena.mit.edu>, by wdstarr@athena.mit.edu (William December Starr):

>
> In article <803@Intrepid.ECE.UKans.EDU>, Barry Gingrich said:
>
>> ...I guess that this means that ABC is trying to figure out whether or
>> not they should renew.
>
> The audience size for the 4/26 episode was down 14% from the 4/19
> audience; and the 4/19 audience was 30% smaller than that of 4/12.
>
> Having reported all that, let me say that I'm not an overly
> enthusiastic supporter of renewal. All indications are that neither
> Lynch nor Frost want to make this show their life's obsession, and the
> 4/26 episode is pretty indicative of the fact that the show can suffer
> pretty badly in someone else's hands, especially wrt direction. I'd
> rather see TP do eight good hours and leave than get renewed and
> become Juat Another Mediocre TV Show.
>

However, listen to this David Lynch quote from the May 7 issue
of Newsweek:

"I never thought I'd be watching numbers like I am, but I love the
cast, I love the place of Twin Peaks and the coffee and doughnuts.
I don't want to say goodbye to them, so I'm sitting on the edge of
my seat waiting to see what will happen."

On an upbeat note, they also mention that the ratings dip is due
mostly to the loss of the over-50 audience, which is not coveted
by advertisers. The 18-to-49-year-olds are still watching, and
the show is doing as well as any ABC show in that time slot in the
last four years.

The Newsweek article also contains a map of relationships. If you,
like me, have trouble keeping track of all these people as you are
watching, I suggest you go get this issue of Newsweek.


Michael O'Brien
6600sirt@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu

In article <1990May1.145435.22119@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>
kem@csri.toronto.edu (Kem Luther) writes:

>> >> I think in the U.S. you have to go south to Nevada to blow 
>> >> your wad.  In Canada only the government can run houses
>> >> of gambling (read: lotteries), and there are no casinos like
>> >> the one in TP.  

> >Maybe it's an illegal one.  It did *look* like a bar, I assume
> > you'd have to be an insider though to skip the alcohol drink part. :-)

Well, it could be illegal, of course (considering it's also a
whorehouse).  While there are no casinos per se in Washington, there are
certainly plenty of places in the state to play poker legally.  Maybe
the casino is actually just a poker club?

And, FYI, you certainly don't need to go to Nevada to find legal
casinos.  There are some in Oregon, believe it or not.  They just have
some pretty strange restrictions & they're not allowed to advertise
within the state.

Also, there legal casinos in Canad -- not just government-run lotteries.

JR

boyajian@ruby.dec.com (Cisco's Buddy) writes:
<In article <458@visual.UU.NET>, rwh@visual.UU.NET (Robert W. Holzel) writes...
<} You might have missed something that I liked very early in the scene
<} at the diner, when Cooper met with Truman, Big Ed, and the deputy. A
<} second waitress was at the counter, describing wordlessly how Leland
<} Palmer rode up and down on his daughter's casket. The way the customers
<} laughed at the mockery was pretty creepy.

<No, I didn't miss that. I didn't think it added anything to the scene at
<the funeral, though. What you apparently missed (from describing her as
<"a second waitress") was that she was Leo's wife Shelley -- not that this
<is a particularly relevant fact.

The one thing that I noticed is that Shelly didn't appear to have any
bruises on her face.  I would think that as bad as they were from the
previous show that she would still have them a day or so later.  Must be
the wonders of modern make-up :-)
-- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Ray Smith | UUCP: {uunet,aplcen,sundc}!anagld!rcsmith Analytics, Inc. | ARPA: rcsmith@analytics.com or Suite 200 | anagld!rcsmith@uunet.uu.net or 9891 Broken Land Parkway | RCSmith@DOCKMASTER.NCSC.MIL Columbia, MD 21046 | Voice: (301) 381-4300 Fax: (301) 381-5173 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Did i miss a show?  I thought there has been the pilot and 2 weekly
shows--if this is wrong what was the 1st weekly show about???
Just briefly, please....
-- ************************************************************************ * Steve Gribble Internet: gribble@cica.cica.indiana.edu * Lead Computer Consultant swg@iumail.ucs.indiana.edu * Dept. of Sociology, Indiana University Bitnet: gribble@iubacs

Spoiler from the preview ABC showed last night...

Unless I was hearing wrong, it seems like Norma's husband is also one
of Josie's lovers.

There also seemed to be a shot of James and Donna together at the 
necklace-burying spot.

Does anyone else rememvber what was in the preview?

--
Rich Carreiro                                        Denizen of Hell
ARPA: rlcarr@athena.mit.edu                         Graduate Student
UUCP: ...!mit-eddie!mit-athena!rlcarr                      MIT
BITNET: rlcarr@athena.mit.edu                      Physics Department

In article <10846@shlump.nac.dec.com> boyajian@ruby.dec.com (Cisco's Buddy) writes:
> >In article <308@sunee.waterloo.edu>, abelinsk@sunee.waterloo.edu (Avi Belinsky) writes...

> >} 10) The killer washed his hands. (from Albert's report) Who would do this?
> >} ...They wouldn't have mentioned it if it wasn't significant.
> >
> >I think you're reading too much into it.

It not significant that the killer washed his hands--it's significant 
because of the type of soap used by the killer.  Albert said something 
about it being an industrial type soap; perhaps by finding identifying
businesses or people who buy or use this soap, they can narrow the field
of suspects.

In article <LA1#-Z#@rpi.edu> mok@pawl.rpi.edu (Malachi Orion Kelerison) writes:

> >   Leland is serious damaged. There ws the bit with the picture in Episode 2
> >which suggests that he has blood on his hands. there could be a lot of guilt
> >involved in her death. He might have known what she was into and blames
> >himself or it could be more serious than that.

Did anyone besides me notice that the nurse gave Leland an injection just
before Madeline shows up?

--
Archer Sully       |  I'm 27 years old.  That's 54 in Nerd Years
(archer@esd.sgi.com)  | -- Keith Rienzi

Hey folks.  I've just been told that this board exists, and as I am an
avid fan of D.L. and Twin Peaks, I thought I would join in...so forgive
me if I ask questions that you've already covered (I didn't want to read
717 posts worth of catching up...)

Did anyone ever figure out who the figure in the shadows was in the
episode two weeks ago?  The quarterback and his strong arm pal were in
the woods with Leo and the q/b says something to the effect of "do you
have somebody with you?" and then they're forced to run.  Maybe he said,
and I missed it, but I'm curious.  Could it have been Dr. Jacoby, and
that's how he has the half of the heart? (sneaking out in the woods, saw
biker & Laura's best friend smooching and watched them bury the thing
then go did it up himself?)

Oh yea... the thing that goes by the window in the dream sequence, I am
pretty sure, is the back end of a plane... it looks like they're sitting
in an airpost lounge and the plane just taxis by outside the window.  If
you have it on tape, look at it... it works.

*Was Andrew murdered ?  Does it relate to this murder or is it just
*Catherine/Ben's power struggle for the mill?
*I think he was murdered, and that it was part of Catherine and Ben's plot
*to get their hands on the Mill and the land.
Makes you wonder if the murder of Andrew (c'mon, we know he had to have
been knocked off... ;-} )has something to do with Laura...I mean, Ben
and the One Eyed Jack, Laura at the One Eyed Jack, Laura maybe found out
about Ben's wrongdoings...so she had to made quiet, non?  And speaking
of the One Eyed Jack Problem, what does Audrey Horne know about all of
this?  And why is she such a late 50's/early 60's throwback?  

*While watching the tape, I noticed that in the video of
*Laura, and in James' flashback of her, that Laura's hair is blond.
*However, the body on the beach and on the coroner's table has brown hair
*(...just like Laura's cousin). I was wondering why nobody has brought
*this up during the "Laura and her cousin changed place" speculations.
Hair her color would look brown when wet...mine does.

*Also, did anybody else notice that "Blackie" (the "hostess" at One Eyed
*Jack's that Jerry recites poetry to) showed up at Laura's funeral?
Wasn't most of the town at Laura Palmer's funeral?  My question about
this is, what DID the people of Twin Peaks know (and still know...)
regarding all the wrongdoings...the speach by the quarterback seemed
kinda strange (like most of the SHOW isn't strange...)

And now there's "an evil lurking in Twin Peaks".  So, when does Dave
stop introducing new characters and let us get on with things....

Sorry for being so long winded....the excitement got to me... :^)

-kyle

In article <10498@yunexus.UUCP> logan@yunexus.UUCP (Beryl Logan) writes:
> >hypothesis, or did he just say he knew who the killer was.  As I
> >recall, he [Cooper] was very off-hand at breakfast about telling Harry and Lucy
> >that he forgot who it was, almost as if it didn't matter.  Seems odd
> >that he forgot, first if he now knew the killer's identity, would he
> >be able to fall back to sleep so easily? 

Cooper said he forgot the killers' identity, but he's lying.
He actually remembers who the killer is but he needs to 
collect more evidence before he makes an arrest.  He can't tell
the sheriff because 
a) The sheriff is the killer,  or
b) he simply doesn't want the information to leak out
--

******************************************************
*Jonathan Yackel yackel@lancashire.cs.wisc.edu*
******************************************************

Copied without permission from the 5/2/90 New York Times:

The season's final episode of the most talked about new
television series of the year, "Twin Peaks," is to be moved to 10 PM
on May 23, ABC announced yesterday.
The season finale would be shown on a Wednesday, away from its
usual 9 PM slot on Thursday, in which it has had declining ratings
opposite the NBC comedy "Cheers."  Production executives of "Twin
Peaks" complained last week that their series had been put at risk by
the network's schedule; they had said the Wednesday slot would be
better.
On May 23, "Twin Peaks" is to preempt another new ABC series,
"Equal Justice."

Just thought you might like to know.  It's fine with me as long as TP
doesn't compete with The Simpsons.

Brian
brian@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu

S.A. Cooper says dreams come from firing neurons, but look what Homer
(the Greek, not Simpson) says:
   My friend, dreams are things hard to interpret, hopeless to puzzle
   out, and people find that not all of them end in anything.
   There are two gates through which the floating dreams issue.
   One pair of gates is made of horn, and one of ivory.
   Those of the dreams which issue through the gate of sawn ivory,
   these are deceptive dreams, their message is never accomplished.
   But those that come into the open through the gates of the polished
   horn [!!!] accomplish the truth for any mortal who sees them.
                                          Odyssey, Book 19, ll. 560-567
                                          (Lattimore translation)

> > Incidentally, wasn't it Jacques in the woods with Leo?  It's not
> > the one-armed man -- that shadowed figure has the arm that the
> > guy is missing.
.-.
|W|hat, you mean he had three arms? :-)  I'm still not sure
`-' whether Leo knew that other person was there.  I don't
    have that episode taped (and I really wish I did), but
    I don't believe Leo acknowledged Bobby's observation that
    somebody was there . . .
    <_Jym_>

> > In episode four, both at the pie scene and at breakfast, Cooper
> > failed to say his famous "Great Coffee!" line.
.-.
|N|ot only that, but he didn't eat *one* cherry pie!  And we had
`-' gone to all the trouble of baking a cherry pie and making
    some *damn* good coffee for the show, too.  And where in hell
    does one get huckleberries?
    <_Jym_>

I just could'nt resist posting some theories that have come to mind while
reading this news group.

1.  Laura (or her lookalike's) father seems to have some extra guilt about
her death, more than just a normal grief.  My theory includes the fact
that he is implicated in the death.

2.  The statement "She's dead" is important.  I think you can read it as
"She's DEAD".  This could imply that the person is shocked that she is DEAD,
when she was not supposed to actually DIE during some event in which the
speaker participated or had some knowledge about.

3.  Many people in the town seem to be implicated in this "anti evil cult"
vigilante group, including the sheriff and Ed.  One way to "exorcise"
demons is through the use of magic ritual.

So, heres the theory.  The "anti evil cult" group was involved in magic
rituals up in the old train car.  This cult included Laura's father, Ed,
the sheriff, and others.  Part of the ceremony involved Laura.  During
the ceremony (from which one girl excaped alive, remember), Laura
ACCIDENTALLY died (notice that she seems to have died from a lot of small
wounds, rather than a single blow or wound).  Thus, the townspeople, including
the sheriff, are covering up the secret group's cult happenings and Laura's
accidental death.

Well, what do you think??