Season 2, Episode 08: Drive with a Dead Girl — November 17–30, 1990

Did Russ Tamblyn play General Tom Thumb, or some other small person, in a film
of a fairytale?

Richard.

/ hpopd:alt.tv.twin-peaks / rjp1@cbnewsc.att.com (be here now) / 10:45 pm  Nov 29, 1990 /
When Leland was dancin' around before/after Cooper and Truman told
him that they had arrested Ben, was his dancing similar to that of
the dwarf (the mfap)??  Is this what Cooper notices but can't quite
account for?  He certainly looked puzzled.  I don't have a tape of
that episode.

--    --
rj pietkivitchatt!ihlpa!rjp1
----------

I thought that the dream was a dead-giveaway. Whilst I know some people
thought the dancing MFAP was MIKE, it struck me that he represented Leland
(or was it BOB?). The dancing connection just seemed so strong.

Another ignorant UK comment?

Richard.

In article <1990Nov28.035502.17591@Neon.Stanford.EDU>, bthomas@Neon.Stanford.EDU (Becky Thomas) writes...

} So I think it's probably a mistake to assume that the closed captioning
} is necessarily right.  On the other hand, maybe the people who do the
} captioning do it a little ahead of time and so can listen to difficult
} phrases a few times or even ask to see a script.  Anybody know?

Well, in *this* case (the Lynchkin's phrase), they *must* be correct. One
of the points that has not been lost on a number of people is that the note
found pinned to Harold Smith had the same phrase. Cooper read this *and*
translated it. Yes, it's *possible* that two homophonic but different
phrases were used, but it's highly unlikely.

-- "I can't die yet. I haven't seen THE JOLSON STORY." --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, "The Mill", Maynard, MA) UUCP: ...!decwrl!ruby.enet.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%ruby.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

In article <mNmBT5w163w@halcyon.uucp>, hikaru%halcyon.uucp@seattleu.edu (Richard Barrett) writes...

} You are, of course, assuming that "a circle made of gold" as MIKE said in 
} the preview refers to Cooper's ring.

Or, he might be assuming that the ring -- shown clearly (looks like it's
dropping to the floor) -- seen after the shot of Cooper and the Giant
facing each other is what indicates that Cooper gets his ring back.

-- "I can't die yet. I haven't seen THE JOLSON STORY." --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, "The Mill", Maynard, MA) UUCP: ...!decwrl!ruby.enet.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%ruby.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

In article <17256@shlump.nac.dec.com>, boyajian@ruby.dec.com (Cisco's Buddy) writes:
> > In article <14646@accuvax.nwu.edu>, kaufman@delta.eecs.nwu.edu (Michael L. Kaufman) writes...
> > 
> > } I don't buy this whole thing. This all started when someone called Donna's
> > } behavior slutty. Face it folks, she was acting slutty. She was not showing
> > } a "healthy" or "positive" attitude toward sex, she wanted to do it on the
> > } floor in the jail with James. This, by any reasonable definition, IMHO, is
> > } considered slutty behavior.
> > 
> > I disagree. If a man wants to screw anything that moves, people think its
> > natural -- "He's just sowing his wild oats."
> > 
> > If a woman wants to screw anything that moves, she's considered a "slut".
> > 
> > This is sexist. It's wrong. So she wants to do it on the floor with James?

Oh, come on. People ALSO think men are not quite right when they
want to "fuck anything that moves". Sowing his wild oats went out
about 20 years ago. Ever been down to Tijuana? Yes, the men are
really sluttish...I don't think anyone can argue about those men
"only wanting to sow their oats." They're thinking about plowing a
woman, not a field. We know it, they know it, so who cares?
And this is not racist: the same situation exists at almost every fraternity
party one goes to here in the good old US of A. 
If "slutty" is defined as just wanting to do the
wild thing anytime, anywhere, perferably in a place not quite viewed
by the general public as suitable to the act (such as the jail) then
I think we can be agreement as to Donna actin' slutty. 

> > } Just as, if James had made this suggestion to Donna we would call him
> > } (oh, I don't know), an asshole.
> > 
> > Yeah, but no one would think he was deviant because of it.

Again, I think most people would look upon such a suggestion as
implying great need. NO ONE IS CALLING DONNA DEVIANT! Deviancy
usually implies some act thought of as "perverse" i.e. B&D S&M
beastiality etc. (yes, including RAPE (*gasp!*)) and I don't think
"sluttish" is the same as "deviant" or perverse. It just means she's
horny, doesn't care where it happens, and thinks it better happen
NOW! As well as not being coy about her feelings. She wanted it, 
she knew it, and she certainly didn't mind James knowing it. I find
this attitude quite refreshing, but it IS "slutty". More power to
her! And hey, anybody see that cover of ROLLING STONE a little while
ago? Donna, Maddie and Audrey hugging each other with tight tank
tops and jeans on! Any
women think this is SEXIST, wouldn't you say the same about a
picture of Kyle McLoughlin in BVD briefs bending over to pick up his
shirt? Yeah, quite an image, I know...but the point is made.
-T.
-- =========================================================================== "Yeah, I'll go ta' check out a movie, | Internet: but it'll take a BLACK one ta' move me!" | rbutler@sdcc13.ucsd.edu -- Public Enemy No. One | All other forms of life

In <1990Nov29.222912.16795@cadence.com> phz@cadence.com (Pete Zakel) writes:

> >For those of you who not only wish to listen to, but to *play* the music
>from Twin Peaks, the music is now available in sheet music form.  The songs
> >included are:
> >It's published by Cheery Lane Music Company, Inc.  The address (for those of
> >you who can't find it in your local music stores) is:
> >Cherry Lane Music Company, Inc.
> >P.O. Box 430
> >Port Chester, NY  10573

But how much is it, so that we can order directly?  

Thanks!      


##########################################################################
# roman@mthvax.cs.miami.edu  #  "Now I know the things I know            #
# roman@mthvax (bitnet)      #       And I do the things I do;           #
##############################   And if you do not like me so,           #
#    "I hate asparagus...    #       To hell, my love, with you."        #
# Does that mean I'll never  #                    ---D. Parker           #
#    grow up?" --L.Palmer    #                       "Indian Summer"     #
##########################################################################

In article <1776@beguine.UUCP> George.Harris@samba.acs.unc.edu (George Harris) writes:
> >Help!  I've gotten some GIFs, & I ftped & compiled the artshow
> >GIF-viewer that's supposed to work on SUNs, but this viewer has the
> >undocumented feature that it only works with color monitors, & I only
> >have access to B&Ws.  So, does anyone know of a GIF-viewer that will 
> >work on monochrome-SUNs?  I am in desperate straits here!  (Well, not
> >really, but alittle hyperbole never hurt anyone...)

You need the latest version of xloadimage (it will dither or halftone
color GIFs for mono monitors ).  It will also display raster files,
X pixmaps and bitmaps and other formats in windows or on the root window.
It also works well as an xgif replacement for color machines (but it doesn't
resize images on resize events - you can set up a zoom factor on the command
line like 300% and pan around the image - and crashes in slideshow mode after
a few pictures)

You should get the latest sources from MIT.
I have put a sparc binary in dept.cs.yale.edu:~ftp/pub as xloadimage.sun4
(you didn't say whether you have a Sun4 or Sun3).

- Morrow




Any ideas on what happened to Cooper in Pittsburgh (my birthplace)?

-- H. Morrow Long Manager of Development Yale Univ. Comp Sci Dept. Computing Facility

In article <f0@vahmifqy> blojo@ocf.berkeley.edu writes:
> >In article <1990Nov26.164034.1@si151a.llnl.gov>, Matt Brinkman ponders:
> >
>> >>                                                            In the dream
>> >> sequence, Laura touched her nose with her right index finger.  When Harry
>> >> brings Cooper to meet the Bookhouse Boys it turns out that this same gesture
>> >> is the secret signal of the Bookhouse Boys.  Coincidence?????  Hmmmmmm...
> >
There is a christmas poet poem, probably the night before Christmas, in which
the jolly old elf touches his finger aside his nose and up the chimney he
goes.  It seems to have been a commonly understood sign meaning: This is a
secret between you and I.
This generation seems to know only the hand signs that mean: fuck you.
Ah the poverty of modern life.!
 
If the gesture indicates sharing a secret the then it would make sense that
Laura would make that gesture to Cooper before whispering something (the name
of the killer?) in his ear. And since The Bookhouse Boys are a secret society,
their sign means shared  secret also.
 
ann hodgins

In article <14590@sdcc6.ucsd.edu> rbutler@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Trey (PartyPak dir!)) writes:
> >In article <17256@shlump.nac.dec.com>, boyajian@ruby.dec.com (Cisco's Buddy) writes:
>> >> In article <14646@accuvax.nwu.edu>, kaufman@delta.eecs.nwu.edu (Michael L. Kaufman) writes...
>> >> 
>> >> } I don't buy this whole thing. This all started when someone called Donna's
>> >> } behavior slutty. Face it folks, she was acting slutty. She was not showing
>> >> } a "healthy" or "positive" attitude toward sex, she wanted to do it on the
>> >> } floor in the jail with James. This, by any reasonable definition, IMHO, is
>> >> } considered slutty behavior.

 
Personally I find James revoltingly prudish. *He* is the weird one,
not Donna.
Donna is just beginning to let herself feel strongly for a man and, very
unfortunately for her, she has chosen uptight James instead of Harold. 
Seeing her man in trouble aroused powerful passions. I think it is human nature
to feel an upsurge  of passion in wars, jails and hospitals. Something
about the life force rising up against a threat. Life against death.
Too bad James couldn't appreciate it.
 
a.h.

Draw your own conclusions--

alternat@watserv1.waterloo.edu (Ann Hodgins) writes:

> >In article <f0@vahmifqy> blojo@ocf.berkeley.edu writes:
>> >>In article <1990Nov26.164034.1@si151a.llnl.gov>, Matt Brinkman ponders:
>> >>
>>> >>>                                                            In the dream
>>> >>> sequence, Laura touched her nose with her right index finger.  When Harry
>>> >>> brings Cooper to meet the Bookhouse Boys it turns out that this same gesture
>>> >>> is the secret signal of the Bookhouse Boys.  Coincidence?????  Hmmmmmm...
>> >>
> >There is a christmas poet poem, probably the night before Christmas, in which
> >the jolly old elf touches his finger aside his nose and up the chimney he
> >goes.  It seems to have been a commonly understood sign meaning: This is a
> >secret between you and I.
> >This generation seems to know only the hand signs that mean: fuck you.
> >Ah the poverty of modern life.!
> > 
> >If the gesture indicates sharing a secret the then it would make sense that
> >Laura would make that gesture to Cooper before whispering something (the name
> >of the killer?) in his ear. And since The Bookhouse Boys are a secret society,
> >their sign means shared  secret also.
> > 
> >ann hodgins

Finger to the side of the nose is a common signal among (at least)
carnies and con men/women and was widely publicized in the movie "The
Sting."  General meaning is "keep this under your hat," or "a scam is
running, play it straight," as well as a general sign of recognition,
e.g., a fresh shill signalling his/her status to a midway carny upon
walking up to, say, the milk-bottle toss (this gets you the ball
*without* the off-center weights in it).  No doubt all kinds of local
variations exist.

I first learned it from a carny in the early 1950's (yeah, misspent
youth) and my guess is that it goes *way* back; I wouldn't be
surprised to find it as a stage direction in an Elizabethan play.

Possible spoiler of the 11/17 episode:

When Donna and James leave the Palmer's house, Leland looks
into the mirror and we see BOB.  BOB is not his usual 
smiling  self, but has a closed-mouth, worried look.  Does
anybody have speculation on the significance of this?

Can this be an indication of Donna's future with BOB?
MIKE said something like, "...When he smiles, everybody 
run."  What do people do when he's not smiling?

-- John Pane pane+@cs.cmu.edu School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon University (412) 268-3650

My apologies to those who have seen this before.  I originally posted this
message to rec.arts.tv, before I knew that alt.tv.twin-peaks was accessible
to me.  I'm reposting here because obviously the TP audience here is much
larger, and it was well-received by the TP fans on the other group:

Barbara and I have been talking about marriage for a while.  She knew I was
ring shopping, and had been anticipating that I would propose to her any day
now.  But I didn't want her to expect it, as she would if I took her out to
a nice restaurant, for instance.  So here is what I did, which only a Twin
Peaks fan would appreciate.

The Twin Peaks soundtrack was playing on the stereo when Barbara
walked into my apartment on Monday afternoon.  I handed her an envelope
addressed to "My Special Agent".  Inside was a note saying "Laura knew 
answer to the question on your mind."  (Of course the question on her mind
was "when is he going to ask me to marry him").  

It took a little while, but eventually she walked over to the bookshelf and
picked up my copy of The Secret Diary of Laura Palmer.  Inside she found a
computer printout of a bunch of random numbers.  Imbedded in these numbers
was the message "check the machine for answers".  She went to the answering
machine and played the message, which went something like.  "Diane, 3:52 pm,
Room 221 at the Great Denniston.  These mystery letters keep turning up
everywhere, even under my own fingernails." (The Denniston is the name of
the building I live in).

She grabbed my hands and checked all of my fingers.  Under one fingernail
she found a tiny piece of paper.  On the paper were the letters "cd".  She
walked over to the stereo expecting to see the Twin Peaks soundtrack cd
playing.  But I had taped it earlier and it was the tape that was playing.
She found the cd and searched the jewel box and liner notes to no avail.
Then she turned on the cd player to insert the cd.  The cd tray opened to
present the engagement ring.

It was a fun little game.  And she said "yes".
-- John Pane pane+@cs.cmu.edu School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon University (412) 268-3650

Sheryl Lee was indeed found in a local talent audition and signed for the
bit part.  Lynch liked her and decided to expand her role (although I *think*
she is done for good now).  I believe she is studying acting/acting in the
Seattle area.

I heard this very early on (like a week or so after the premiere).

Oz

In article <1990Nov27.205702.28463@Think.COM> barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin) writes:
> >One *big* problem with Broken Badges, though, is its time slot.  I believe
> >it will be on Saturday nights, which means that will be opposite either
> >Twin Peaks or China Beach (I don't know what time it's scheduled for, but I
> >can't imagine it being shown at 8pm)....................................

According to our local newspaper's TV column (New Haven Register, Joe
Amarante) both Fox's American Chronicles (a Lynch/Frost collaboration) and
ABC's China Beach are being cancelled.  The reviewer said:

  Speaking of failed Sunday shows, [NB: I thought AC was on Sat nite?]
  Fox network last week axed "American Cronicles," its nearly invisible
  documentary show.  People watch Fox for crude jokes, not fancy photography.

...
  And ABC's critically acclaimed "China Beach" - 82nd in the ratings - has
  been sent to the showers.  It will leave the air sometime in December.

Looks like the quality of Saturday night television is going downhill again.
TP has been floating in the same area of the ratings as China Beach hovers,
I wonder how long ABC will keep it?

Video rental stores will probably try to kill TP as a business move :-)

- Morrow

-- H. Morrow Long Manager of Development Yale Univ. Comp Sci Dept. Computing Facility

TWIN PEAKS 
FREQUENTLY ANSWERED QUESTIONS
Last update: 11/30/90

(Many of these concern what various people said.  Many thanks to Bart
J. Geraci, the man with the closed caption decoder.)

WARNING: This article may contain references to any episode up to and
including the most recent one shown in the U.S.  

1. What's this "secret diary" that everybody keeps referring to?
-- _The Secret Diary of Laura Palmer_ was written by Jennifer Lynch
(David's daughter), and is published in the U.S by Pocket
Books, and in the U.K. Penguin Books.  It's supposed to be the
text of the diary that was discovered in the second season of
the show.  

2. a) What language was the little boy with the creamed corn speaking?
-- French
   b) What did he say?
-- J'ai une ame solitaire: I have a solitary soul.  (This is according
to the closed captions, so we don't want to know what your
friend who had three years of French thought it was.)
   c) Didn't he look an awful lot like David Lynch?
-- Yes, that's because he's Austin Jack Lynch, David Lynch's son.
   (For handy reference, look at Gordon Cole (Cooper's boss): he's played
   by David Lynch.)

3. What was that ditty Leland was singing, and what does it mean?
-- The full lyrics of the song are:

Mairzy doats and dozy doats
and little lambzy divy.
A kiddly divy, too, wooden shoe?

Now if the words sounds queer,
and funny to your ear,
a little bit jumbled and jivy,
Sing:

Mares eat oats and does eats oats
and little lambs eat ivy.
A kid'll eat ivy, too, wouldn't you?

   If necessary, go look up "mare," "doe" and "kid" in the dictionary.

4. Wasn't the Giant also on Star Trek: The Next Generation?
-- Yes, he is Carel Struycken, who played Mr. Homm.  No, he did not
play Lurch on the Adams Family (although it has been reported
that he will play Lurch in an upcoming AF movie).

5. Who was standing outside the window while Josie was seducing Harry?
-- The majority of posters believe it was the Mysterious Asian
Gentleman, also known as "Jonathan", Josie's "cousin" from
Hong Kong.  Those who have suggested other people are pushing it.

6. What were the three predictions that the giant made to Cooper?
-- a man in a smiling bag
   the owls are not what they seem
   without chemicals, he points

   The giant also said something about "Leo locked in a hungry horse,"
and that there was a clue at Leo's house.  However, these were
not the "predictions" which will be fulfilled before Cooper
gets his ring back.  The former refers to the fact that Leo
was in jail in Hungry Horse, Montana when Theresa Banks was
killed, and the latter refers to the Circle Brand boots that
were found with the cocaine at Leo's house.

7. What did the person say who answered the phone when Andy called
"Gwen and Larry", where he thought Lucy was staying?
-- "Adams abortion clinic"

8. What did Harold say to Laura and Maddy as he scratched his face
with the garden fork?
-- "Are you looking for secrets? Is that what all this is about?
 Well, maybe I can help you. Do you know what the ultimate
 secret is? You want to know?
 Laura did.
 The secret of knowing who killed you."

9. Has anybody mentioned the possible connection between:
   * BOB and J. R. "Bob" Dobbs of the Church of the Subgenius?
   * All the donuts they eat on Twin Peaks, and JFK's "Ich bin ein
Berliner" speech?  What he literally said was "I am a jelly
donut." 
   * Agent Dale Cooper and D.B. Cooper, the guy who hijacked a plane
and then parachuted over Washington State with a whole bunch
of money and was never found?  
   * Ben and Jerry Horne and Ben and Jerry's brand ice cream (in one
scene the brothers Horne are even shown eating ice cream)?
   * Sarah's vision of a white horse and Mr. Ed?
   *   "       "    "  "   "    "     "  Laura' pony, Troy?
   *   "       "    "  "   "    "     "  Death, which "rides a pale
 horse"?
   *   "       "    "  "   "    "     "  heroin, also known as "white
 horse" (maybe Leland/BOB shot
 her up with heroin)?
-- Yes for all of the above.

10. What was the poem that "Mike" recited in Cooper's dream, and later
at the police station?
-- "Through the darkness of future past
    the magician longs to see
    one chants out between two worlds
    'Fire walk with me.'"

   (There has been much debate over whether the second-to-last line is
"one chants out" or "one chance out".  The closed captions
indicate "chants".)  

11. How were the funny voices in the dream sequence done?  
-- Before shooting the scene, the actors were recorded reading their
lines.  The recording was then played to them backwards, and
they memorized how to imitate it.  Each shot in the scene was
acted in reverse order, with the actors saying their
"backwards" lines.  The film was then reversed so that the
actions came out in the right order, and the words came out
double-reversed.  Unfortunately, the words weren't very
intelligible, so subtitles were added.

12. Who was that long-haired guy in the background when Cooper brought
Audrey to the Bookhouse from One Eyed Jack's?  It looked like BOB!
-- Nope.  It was Joey Paulson, who's a friend of James and is one of
the Bookhouse Boys (he was also the one who took Donna to meet
James in the woods, early in the series).  Further evidence
that it was Joey in that scene is that Joey gets a credit at
the end of the episode (BOB does not).

13. What year is the show set in?
-- References in the first season placed it in 1989.  However, _The
Secret Diary of Laura Palmer_ places the action in 1990.
Sources on the production team (i.e., Scott Frost) indicate
that it's been sort of miraculously moved up to 1990.
Apparently, the producers and directors have trouble keeping
track of what day it's supposed to be in Twin Peaks, never
mind what year.

14. Maddy notices a burning smell just before she's attacked by
Leland/BOB.  Didn't Jacoby say he smelled burned oil in the
hospital when Jacques was killed?  Does this mean that Leland
was BOB when he killed Jacques?
-- No.  Later, under hypnosis, Jacoby corrected himself and said that
he smelled the burned smell just before he was attacked at the
gazebo, but not at the hospital.  However, this does leave
open the possibility that Jacoby was attacked by BOB.

15. a) Where is Twin Peaks supposed to be? 
-- It's in the State of Washington, but where exactly is not clear.
In Cooper's initial monolog to Diane as he's driving into
town, he states that it's five miles south of the Canadian
border and twelve miles west of the state line.  That would
seem to place it in the northeast corner of the state.
However the surrounding geography is like that of the Cascade
Mountains in western WA.  References to cities such as Seattle
and Tacoma, but not Spokane, also seem to place it in western
WA.  The show's creators seem to have smooshed the state so
that it all fits west of the Cascades.
    b) How big a town is Twin Peaks?
-- Again, that's not exactly clear.  The population sign that's shown
at station breaks and on the Twin Peaks sound track indicates
51,201.  However cues in the show seem to indicate that it's
much much smaller than that.  For instance, it doesn't have a
resident circuit court judge, which any town of 51K+ in the
U.S. would; it has a sheriff's department but no police
department.  On the other hand, it does have its own hospital,
a fancy department store, and a large hotel.  It seems the
creators haven't worried too much about being consistent on
this point.

16. Has anybody noticed that the Twin Peaks soundtrack gives special
thanks to, among other people, Bob (no last name)?
-- Yes.

17. Is the first season two-hour pilot considered the first episode,
or is the first one-hour show the first episode?  Do the
episodes have names?  What the best way of referring to
episodes?
-- The episodes are not named.  Whether it's the best way or not,
Lynch/Frost number the episodes with four-digit numbers, where
the first digit is the season number, and the others are the
order within that season.  This system was apparently adopted
after the pilot was produced, so the pilot is 1000, the first
one-hour episode is 1001, and so on.  However for the second
season, the two-hour season premiere is 2001. 
--
Janet SwisherInternet: swsh@midway.uchicago.edu
University of ChicagoPhone: (312) 702-7608
Academic and Public ComputingP-mail: 1155 E. 60th St. Chicago IL 60637, USA
"This whole world's wild at heart and weird on top."  -- Lula

In article <29@tdw205.ed.ray.com> graffam@sud509.ed.ray.com (Jim Graffam) writes:
> >In article <90330.115033PJP114@psuvm.psu.edu> PJP114@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
>> >>REGARDING THE QUESTION--WAS BOB IN LELAND AT THE TIME OF LAURA'S MURDER--THE AN
> ><stuff deleted>
> >Please stop shouting.  Thanks.

PJP114@psuvm is the ASCII (actually probably EBCDIC xlated) equivalent of FBI
supervisor Gordon (Cooper's boss) :-)


- Morrow

-- H. Morrow Long Manager of Development Yale Univ. Comp Sci Dept. Computing Facility

>> >>What happened to Coop is Pittsburgh?...

He experienced CMU.  'Nuff said!

-JHarvey

peiges@ark.UUCP (Bert Soto) writes:

> > I have heard Sherilyn Fenn has had a past relationship with 
> > Prince among others.  I think another was Johnny Depp (?).
> > Does anyone have any more information on this.  Are there any
> > others.  Enquiring minds want to know, dammit!

Yes to both. In an article in _Rolling Stone_, she talked about those two 
relationships, comparing Prince to an African violet(??) and bringing out 
an arrowhead that Depp had given to her.

> > 
> > Also,  does anyone have a complete listing of the movies she's
> > appeared in.  I think there was a gargantuan list on rec.arts.tv
> > with just about any actress imaginable in it.  I didn't save it
> > and don't know if she was in it.

Movies I know of that she has been in:

Two Moon Junction
Kiss Of The Beast
Just One Of The Guys

There could be more, but I don't know of them...

**************************************************************************
"Mr. BOB, you've killed Theresa Banks,   *                Richard Barrett
 Laura Palmer, Jacques Renault, and      *             18004 146th Ave NE
 Maddy Ferguson. What are you going to   *          Woodinville, WA 98072
 do next?"                               *                (206)487-1312
"I'm going to Disneyland!"               *hikaru%halcyon.uucp@seattleu.edu
**************************************************************************

idddev@well.sf.ca.us (Innovative Data Design) writes:

> > 
> > 
> > I think that Leland's hair turned white because with black hair he
> > looked a lot like Ben Horne (as in the pilot episode), tending to
> > confuse viewers with small TV sets (like mine).
> >   
> > Also, has there ever been a scene in which we saw Cooper _learn_ that
> > Laura and Maddie looked alike?  Or even learn of Maddie's existence? 
> > At one point he mentioned her, showing that he knew about her, but I
> > don't remember when he _found out_ about her being around.  My point is
> > that Cooper should have found it worth noticing that the dead woman had
> > an identical cousin (god knows enough TP fans remarked on it); instead,
> > the writers seem to have glossed over this point.
> >  

This is interesting. I somehow seem to remember reading that in this 
season, the "twin" feature of a lot of the characters (Maddy/Laura, 
Ben/Leland, Audrey/Shelley) would be explored quite heavily. I guess 
not...

**************************************************************************
"Mr. BOB, you've killed Theresa Banks,   *                Richard Barrett
 Laura Palmer, Jacques Renault, and      *             18004 146th Ave NE
 Maddy Ferguson. What are you going to   *          Woodinville, WA 98072
 do next?"                               *                (206)487-1312
"I'm going to Disneyland!"               *hikaru%halcyon.uucp@seattleu.edu
**************************************************************************

I read a small interview quote from her in the San Jose Mercury where
she said that she is from Boulder, Colorado.  The only other thing she
mentioned was that she watched very little tv.

This weeks tv guide says that Cooper finally finds the killer and tries
to capture him within 24 hours  (meaning next weeks episode: 12/8 will be
confrontation episode -- Killer Bob goes after Donna and/or Audrey, Cooper
stops him -- killing Leland, and Ben is found to be Laura's real father.  Merely
speculation, you understand....)

I know of two films she was in :

Two Moon Junction (1987)
Meridian (1990)

She's the girl with blonde hair in Two Moon Junction.

You are absolutely right.

Notice that the way leland shakes when Cooper approaches him from 
behind is exactly the same as the way the midget was shaking in the
beginning of Coopers dream.  Then Leland dances ... an exact parallel
to the activities of the midget in the dream.

I am beginning to believe that the midget in Cooper's dream is the 
spirit of Leland, one that is separate from Bob.

That's good ol Leland/Bob talking to Donna...he has to get rid of
her to make sure that no one finds out that discrepancy between the
time of Maddy's death (early morning) and the time he said he last saw
her (late morning).  Once Donna is dead, it's James' word vs. his.

In article <20662.27562937@merrimack.edu> rand@merrimack.edu writes:
> >
> >Fenn, Sherilyn          Crime Zone
> >                        Just One of the Guys
> >King of Beasts, The
> >                        Meridian
> >                        Out of Control
> >                        Thrashin'
> >                        True Blood
> >                        Two-Moon Junction
> >                        Wild at Heart
> >                        Wild Life, The
> >                        Wraith, The
> >                        Zombie High

Add: Kiss of the Beast

(Now playing on Showtime.)

-- Eric Cotton Commodore-Amiga (215) 431-9100 1200 Wilson Drive {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!eric West Chester, PA 19380 "I don't find this stuff amusing anymore."

alternat@watserv1.waterloo.edu (Ann Hodgins) theorizes:
 
> >2) BOB is nothing more than a figment of Leland's mental illness. All of
> >Bob's stunts are performed by natural means (if you include ESP as a natural
> >phenomenon).  

It is in hope of this that I still watch TP.  I'm hoping (nay, *praying*) 
that BOB is not some drug-induced space-owl from the planet Licehead who can 
merrily jump from body to body, spreading chaos in the most boring, 
pointless, and frankly, *easy* manner.

And tell me, who could believe that two such talented gentlemen could lower
themselves to such a pathetically weak plot device?  ("Gosh, we couldn't
figger it out n'either, huck yuck huck, so w'figger, it's *aliens* that
did it!)

==============================================================================
|  Greg Anderson  |   hpcuhd!grega      |      grega@hpcuhd.HP.COM           |
==============================================================================
| "It isn't necessary to be rich and famous to be happy.  It's only          |
|  necessary to be rich." -- Alan Alda                                       |
==============================================================================

In article <1990Nov29.234402.12604@alembic.acs.com> csu@alembic.acs.com (Dave Mack) writes:
> >I think we're losing focus a bit here. The important question isn't "Can
> >BOB switch hosts," it's "Who killed Laura Palmer." The assertion that
> >BOB has been in Leland since childhood and *cannot* switch hosts means
> >that Leland/BOB killed Laura as well as Theresa Banks.
> >
> >I will accept this if you can give me a plausible answer to one question:
> >why did Leland's hair turn white on the night he killed Jacques Renault?

Because BOB was _not_ in control when Leland killed Jacques.  When BOB takes
control, Leland is mostly submerged; BOB's host has little memory of what
BOB does.  BOB was in control when Leland killed Theresa Banks, Laura Palmer,
and Madeleine Ferguson; but it was _Leland_ who killed Jacques.  And the
strain of committing murder for the first time (since he had no memory of
the earlier murders) was enough to turn his hair white.

> >I contend that BOB took over Leland on the night Leland murdered
> >Jacques - the act of murder allowed BOB entry - and that this is
> >why Leland's hair turned white and he suddenly developed a sunny
> >disposition.

My explanation for the sunny disposition goes a little further afield.  If
we assume that Leland has some fragmented memories of what BOB did to Laura
with his body, we have a possible explanation for his insane degree of grief.
Leland was truly driven to the edge in the week after Laura's death; haunted
by the ghost of a realization that he killed his daughter.  This is why he
was so ready to kill Jacques; he desperately wanted to feel as though the
murderer of his daughter was dead, to end his ongoing internal torment.  And
when he killed Jacques, he also killed part of himself--that part which was
making him grief-crazed.  By killing Jacques, he sublimated that guilt, and
hence his sunny disposition--and snow-white hair.

Of course, BOB had great fun living through all this--riding dormant inside
Leland while Leland put himself through hell.  And now that Leland is a
murderer himself, BOB is having more fun than ever before!

> >Dave Mack
--
Rob Jellinghaus                 | "Next time you see a lie being spread or
Autodesk, Inc.                  |  a bad decision being made out of sheer
robertj@Autodesk.COM            |  ignorance, pause, and think of hypertext."
{decwrl,uunet}!autodesk!robertj |    -- K. Eric Drexler, _Engines of Creation_

My favorite line (paraphrased because I DON'T memorize TP):

"Gotta pick up some 40-watt bulbs at the hardware store."

==============================================================================
|  Greg Anderson  |   hpcuhd!grega      |      grega@hpcuhd.HP.COM           |
==============================================================================
| "It isn't necessary to be rich and famous to be happy.  It's only          |
|  necessary to be rich." -- Alan Alda                                       |
==============================================================================

jespah@milton.u.washington.edu (Kathleen Hunt):

[lots of interesting observations on Cooper's personality deleted]

> >I don't know what I'm getting at here.  I'm just curious about Cooper. 
> >Does he ever have doubts?  Get lonely?  Doubt his interpretations of his
> >visions?  Has he ever been in love?  Is he really scared of Wyndham?
> >Does he have a sense of the absurd?  

Face it, you're hot for the boy!  I've seen it a million times....

ob smiley --> ;-)

==============================================================================
|  Greg Anderson  |   hpcuhd!grega      |      grega@hpcuhd.HP.COM           |
==============================================================================
| "It isn't necessary to be rich and famous to be happy.  It's only          |
|  necessary to be rich." -- Alan Alda                                       |
==============================================================================

.-.
|T|hose people are dorks.  They also filed to get "loggers" listed
`-' as an endangered species.

/F356/<_Jym_Dyer_>/B893/A972/F83/H25/N729/F387/G298/O37/X235/Q734/
/X243/K822/L262/B23/THE/OWLS/ARE/NOT/WHAT/THEY/SEEM/B383/L947/M84/
/M867/B586/K389/O98/AND/I/LIKE/WHALES/N37/B88/L867/P213/N297/B957/
/W482/jym@mica.berkeley.edu/I55/K387/P987/R80/Z903/Y983/O092/C381/

Contrary to what Tom Neff et al. have been saying, I don't
think we have seen *anything which would lead us to conclude that
a spirit other than Leland's own ever inhabited Leland, or even to
prefer that theory over other, simpler theories.

My own preference is that BOB is an internalized representation
of Leland's darker side, which *he* perceives as a separate person,
& which *is* a separate personality.  He has an image for this person, BOB.
The psychicly sensitive can perceive this image.  This explains the 
visions of Cooper, Ronnette, Sarah, Maddy.  That he is shown to *us*
as BOB when BOB is in control of Leland is afilmic device to let us know
*for certain* what is going on, & also to identify Leland, the character,
with BOB who has been portrayed as "the killer of Laura Palmer."

"But," I hear the faithful cry, "didn't the One-Armed Man say
that BOB is "an inhabiting spirit"?  I reply that the One-Armed Man
is, like BOB, the internalization of some subset of the personality of
his 'host.'  As such I don't think he is an unimpeachable source on the
nature of another like himself, since he is a product of a disturbed
mind.  To put it a little more succinctly, we were not *shown* that BOB
is an inhabiting spirit, rather we were shown another character *claiming*
that BOB is an inhabiting spirit.  

Now, of course, others' opinions may vary, but I much prefer
a work which leaves the supernatural nature of its elements uncertain.
The movie "The Shining" did this to some extent, & Peter Dickinson's
"The Lively Dead" (title may be slightly off) did to a much greater ex-
tent.  I think Twin Peaks has also achieved this, & while I admit that
the supernatural element has been hinted at strongly, it is still 
possible to hold a non-contrived fairly consistent interpretation of
TwinPeaks which does *not* involve possessing spirits.

Of course, as a by-product of my belief in BOB-as-personality-
fragment, I clearly do not believe BOB can change hosts.  I admit that
I hold this view somewhat to avoid that possibility, for in the parlance
of my chosen fields, having BOB host-hop would be 'inelegant.'

"Leland says you're going back to Missoula, MONTANA!"
George.Harris@samba.acs.unc.eduGe|ge

In article <16087@bfmny0.BFM.COM> tneff@bfmny0.BFM.COM (Tom Neff) writes:
> >In article <1990Nov29.234402.12604@alembic.acs.com> csu@alembic.acs.com (Dave Mack) writes:
>> >>I think we're losing focus a bit here. The important question isn't "Can
>> >>BOB switch hosts," it's "Who killed Laura Palmer." The assertion that
>> >>BOB has been in Leland since childhood and *cannot* switch hosts means
>> >>that Leland/BOB killed Laura as well as Theresa Banks.
> >
> >(a) cannot or CHOOSES not to, either way
> >
> >(b) if the lettered fingnail means BOB did it then Leland did Banks,
> >    Laura and Maddy as well as Jacques, and visited Ronette.  Dunno why
> >he didn't kill Ronette; maybe he thought he had.  (blue stuff)  Why
> >didn't they check Renault for a letter: maybe it was too early to ID
> >Leland as the serialist.

Oops. Circular reasoning, Tom. *BOB* killed Banks, Laura and Maddy.
No proof yet that he was in Leland at the time. We don't know Leland's
blood type, but there's a reasonable chance that it's the same as
Laura's which, as you'll recall, was *not* the same as the killer's.
We don't know if he has an alibi for the night of Laura's death.

And how do you know they didn't check Jacques for a letter? Checking
under the nails of a murder victim is pretty standard procedure, and
one that Cooper, Truman, Hawk, and probably even Andy would insist
on, in light of Banks and Laura.

>> >>I will accept this if you can give me a plausible answer to one question:
>> >>why did Leland's hair turn white on the night he killed Jacques Renault?
> >
> >Damn all, I don't think it DID!  Or rather, that it was not originally
> >planned at the time Jacques' snuffing was scripted, that Leland would be
> >a cottontop in the next episode.  I have said this before.  I think this
> >is an "artifact" of the long inter-season break.  Maybe Ray Wise got
> >tired of dyeing his hair and decided to bleach it instead.  Maybe when
> >he reported to the studio that way, instead of telling him to dye it
> >back, something quirky lit up in Lynch and made him decide he liked the
> >change...  

What was that you were saying about Occam's Razor and the unnecessary
multiplication of hypotheses?

I can just see Lynch staring at Ray Wise' head, then turning to the
writers and saying, "Add something about how his hair turned white
overnight. Oh yeah, and make his character happy. I'm tired of him
moaning and crying all the time." Hogwash.

And the "long inter-season break" existed for the viewers, not for
the actors, I suspect. Do you have definite information about when
they filmed that episode? Normally, they try to film as many episodes
of a series as they can during the summer reruns, because there are
always delays and problems, and they absolutely have to have each
episode shot at least three to four weeks before it's to be aired.

>> >>I contend that BOB took over Leland on the night Leland murdered
>> >>Jacques - the act of murder allowed BOB entry - and that this is
>> >>why Leland's hair turned white and he suddenly developed a sunny
>> >>disposition.
> >
> >Actually hasn't Leland been something of a fruitcake since Day One?

Hard to tell, since he was informed of his daughter's murder about
fifteen minutes into the pilot. In the scenes with Ben before that,
he seemed normal and quite nondescript, at least compared to Ben
"Let's go get those cheese-eaters" Horne.

-- Dave Mack

In article <1990Nov29.033121.2079@agate.berkeley.edu>, kumasawa@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Ice) writes...
> >pouncy@campus.swarthmore.edu writes:
>> >>dipankar ray writes...
> > 
> >Whoops!  No, Dipankar Ray did not write it, I did, using his account.
> >Doesn't your newsposter remind you to check that your attribution matches the
> >signature at the bottom of the letter to which you're responding?
> > 
> >I wrote:
>>> >>>Who says (Sarah Palmer) was drugged?
> > 
>> >>Last week's USA today ran a Twin Peak's tips column that included
>> >>this tidbit - `Leland is drugging wife Sarah; neither is aware Leland
>> >>is killer BBO.'
> > 
> >Well, if USA Today says it, it must be true!  And BOB was giving Laura CPR.
> >Don't trust newspapers/magazines for this sort of info.  They're often in
> >the same boat we are.  Interviews with Lynch or Frost are another story,
> >though.  Then the writer can't make up his own interpretation and present it
> >as "inside information".
> > 
>> >>More on Dipankar Ray who says a lot of Leland-did-it stuff:
> > 
> >Check that.  I, Carl Johnson, said it.
> > 
>> >>As last season ended, Lynch/Frost made a similar effort to point as much
>> >>suspicion as possible on Jacques and Leo.  
> > 
> >Um, they never showed Leo or Jacques as BOB, killing and lettering a victim.
> > 
>> >>Remember the net traffic last spring - Dr. Jacoby's tape and pendant were
>> >>popularly considered indispensible clues.
> > 
> >The clues that the Ben-did-it's are clinging to are very similar.
> > 
> >The net also abounded with Andy-did-it's, Truman-did-it's, etc.  Clearly,
> >there are many on the net who were/are wrong.  The show, on the other hand,
> >is telling us that Leland/BOB killed Laura.
> > 
> >- Carl Johnson


OK.  I guess this means that only three kinds can see Him -
the Gifted, the Damned and the Flaming groovies.