Season 2, Episode 09: Arbitrary Law — December 01–07, 1990

> >Did anyone else think that we were seeing from Bobs' perspective when
> >something was moving along the gully (when it looked like it was shot through
> >a red filter)? My first impression was that we were seeing some small animal
> >running especially when it moved past the end of that (sewer?) pipe. Then when
> >the owl showed up it looked like it was attacking something. Was Bob under
> >attack by the owl and was Bob in some animal form? Just a thought.

I also believe that we were seeing BOB's perspective. It seemed to me that he
was flying. He comes across a crashed car, and the vision fades. I'm predicting
that BOB's next host will be a car crash victim, and not Leo like everybody
else thinks. Anybody agree with me?


+-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+
| Edward J. Sabol               | Arpa:   es2j+@andrew.cmu.edu          |
| Carnegie Mellon University    | Bitnet: es2j@ANDREW.BITNET            |
+-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+
| "The streets that Balboa walked were his own private ocean and Balboa |
| was drowning." - August Wilson                                        |
+-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+

I'm willing to bet large denominations of $$ on 
this premise: Bob was an actual rat at the end
of the show (I think his presence went down the
drain behind Leland's head and inhabited a rat),
and the owl we saw was attacking the rat.  Did
you see how the camera's perspective ran through
the ditch past small drain pipes and a branch?

Leland told us the process of how he was taken 
over by Bob.  There was no similar "invitation"
to Bob by anyone in the station, so I surmise 
Bob went for the nearest creature that couldn't
keep him out.
-Jeff

   1.  I have always found too much of a similarity between Albert and
   Jack Webb's character on Dragnet.  The style of speaking, inflection,
   and facial characteristics are far too similar (IMHO).  I think the
   character was Joe Friday.  His style during the case seemed the 
   same--long lines of cynicism and lists and adjectives.  But, after
   the case, he always looked over and said something to the effect
   of:  "Oh well, you can't change the world, Frank..."   

   2.  What do you think of these three things ?
       a) American Indian myths
       b) The role of >OWLS< in the series
       c) An American Indian named >HAWK< 

  3.  What do you think of these things?
       a) One-Armed man
       b) One-eyed Nadine
       c) One-eyed Jack's 
       d) Jacques Renault
       e) Black Jack Gum
       f) Blackie 
       g) White hair
       h) White horse


4.  I haven't seen anyone comment on the combination of colors that
    were very prevalent in the first year of the series and still,
    somewhat, this year:  RED, GREEN, YELLOW
       a) Street lights were continually shown at various colors
       b) Some characters would often wear these colors
       c) These colors were often used as lens filters (it seemed)
       d) The colors of the logo at the beginning TWIN PEAKS
          (red and green)
       e) Red fire, red clothes, red curtains, red blood (:-)),
          red building, red filters.
       f) Green scenery

5.  The rubber balls:  The beauty of this show is that it doesn't
    require everything to be a plot vehicle.  Lynch is criticized
    for this, but that's what makes the show interesting to
    me.

6.  New theory on Dick:  How could he get Lucy pregnant if he's gay :-)

7.  Thinking more about the final frame of the show, I can only say that
    I think it gets curiouser and curiouser.

In article <2365@ac.dal.ca>, davidson@ac.dal.ca writes...

} In the TP soundtrack album (actually cassette), among the pictures of the
} cast, there is a photo and credit for "Killer BOB". He is standing in
} front of some pipes/valves. Is this scene from the Euroversion (I suspect
} it is) or an upcoming scene.

It's from the Euroversion, yes, but it's also from the scene of Killer Bob
that occurred in Cooper's dream in Episode #2.

-- "I can't die yet. I haven't seen THE JOLSON STORY." --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, "The Mill", Maynard, MA) UUCP: ...!decwrl!ruby.enet.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%ruby.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

In article <90331.140833TEF102@psuvm.psu.edu>, TEF102@psuvm.psu.edu writes...

} If Coop's ex-partner is older thant Leland, it might even explain
} Leland's newly acquired taste in music from the 40's.

Ah, what makes you say that Leland's taste in 40's music is "newly acquired"?

I still fail to understand why so mny people think Leland's musical taste
is signficant. *I* like 40's music and I wasn't born until 1953.

-- "I can't die yet. I haven't seen THE JOLSON STORY." --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, "The Mill", Maynard, MA) UUCP: ...!decwrl!ruby.enet.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%ruby.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

In article <31570014@hpsmpk.HP.COM>, collier@hpsmpk.HP.COM (Mark Collier) writes...

} / hpsmpk:alt.tv.twin-peaks / tak@doe.utoronto.ca (Tak Ariga) / 12:07 am  Nov 26, 1990 /

}} Waldo the Mynah is on tape saying "Leland no! Leland no!". [...]

} I believe Waldo said "Laura no! Laura no!", not "Leland no! Leland no!".

Neither one. He was saying "Leo, no! Leo, no!"

-- "I can't die yet. I haven't seen THE JOLSON STORY." --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, "The Mill", Maynard, MA) UUCP: ...!decwrl!ruby.enet.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%ruby.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

In article <39841@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>, jbuck@galileo.berkeley.edu (Joe Buck) writes...

} If you want to stick to what we know, Leland (or BOB in Leland) definitely
} killed Maddy, and we don't know if BOB killed Teresa Banks.

Aside from the fact that this was answered in the 12/1 episode, don't you
think that the letter-under-the-fingernail business is enough of a clue
that BOB killed Banks?

-- "I can't die yet. I haven't seen THE JOLSON STORY." --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, "The Mill", Maynard, MA) UUCP: ...!decwrl!ruby.enet.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%ruby.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

In article <L9TTW6J@cs.swarthmore.edu>, dup94@campus.swarthmore.edu writes...

} I took for granted that Coop's been to Tibet, since it keeps springing
} up in conversations, both on and off the show. See "tibetan methods"
} 12/1. Please enlighten me: What _is_ Coop's connection to Tibet?

As explained in Episode #2, one night Coop had a dream involving Tibet,
after which he was able to coordinate mind and body in an extraordinary
way. We know that he's never been there because when he lay bleeding to
death in Episode #8, his dictation to Diane in which he was describing
some of the things he's never done in his life includes the line, "And
it goes without saying that I would very much like to visit Tibet."

-- "I can't die yet. I haven't seen THE JOLSON STORY." --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, "The Mill", Maynard, MA) UUCP: ...!decwrl!ruby.enet.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%ruby.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

Ok, here's a mac snd of Lucy's sister exclaiming "great, all we
need is another sperm gun running around" or something to that
effect..


Attachments:
Part 1.267.8 KB

And here's a mac snd of Jerry Horne asking "Who's Bob, do we know a
Bob?"


Attachments:
Part 1.244.1 KB

In article <12271@milton.u.washington.edu> mork@blake.u.washington.edu (David Mork) writes:
> >   1.  I have always found too much of a similarity between Albert and
> >   Jack Webb's character on Dragnet.  The style of speaking, inflection,
> >   and facial characteristics are far too similar (IMHO).  I think the
> >   character was Joe Friday.  His style during the case seemed the 
> >   same--long lines of cynicism and lists and adjectives.  But, after
> >   the case, he always looked over and said something to the effect
> >   of:  "Oh well, you can't change the world, Frank..."   

Miguel Ferrer's voice and delivery are reminiscent of Jack Webb.  (So is
Dan Ackroyd's.)  I don't think it's Ferrer's fault.  Albert Rosenfield
is really nothing like Joe Friday.  Find DRAGNET somewhere on cable and
watch an episode again.

-- I might have gone to West Point, but I was too / /\ Tom Neff proud to speak to a Congressman. -- Will Rogers /__/ \ tneff@bfmny0.BFM.COM

In article <1990Dec4.143244.23022@watserv1.waterloo.edu> broehl@watserv1.waterloo.edu (Bernie Roehl) writes:
> >In article <48964@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> cromwell@acsu.buffalo.edu (mark j cromwell) writes:
>> >>  I still interpret the ending of the last episode as BOB, having departed
>> >>Leland, entering the body of an owl.
> >
> >Actually, I hadn't thought of this interpretation.  Makes sense.  Of course,
> >what's the bright light the owl's coming out of?

The owl is Leland!

Cooper guided dying Leland 'into the light': the spirit world.

The owls are [hosts for] spirits who keep watch over Twin Peaks.  Leland
is the newest owl.  Not all owls are BOB's enemy, but Leland sure is.

Bob entered a rat or a fox or something, and Leland sees his chance.

It's just an idea, but if it turns out to be true:

YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST!  :-)

I'm trying to convince a friend of mine here that Twin Peaks is a wonderful
television program, but I have been rather unsuccessful at this task.

I consider TP to be a real work of art, as far as TV goes, so I was trying to
compare the show to a know painter.

The name that immediately came to my mind is Salvador Dali. 

In fact, I'd say Salvador Dali was to painting what David Lynch is to tv/movie
making. I find there is a close parallel between their respective kind of
surrealism and one can interpret Lynch's work, like Dali's, at many different
levels.

Oh well. That's my opinion.

Mario Ouellet
Dalhousie University
Halifax, Nova-Scotia

This is a repeat of a post I did that I don't think got out.

I think the link between Leland and the Robertson character may be drawn
from Hawks comments after returning from the lake (where Leland said he
say BOB, I can't remember its name).  Some one correct me, but didn't
Hawk say (paraphrased):

   The lot (?) next to the Palmer house was empty, but the next lot
   had a house that was boarded up.  He talk to the tea ladies and 
   they didn't remember any Robertson in THAT house (nor did city/
   county/state records).

What about this for an idea.  BOB is from the lot next door as Leland
says, a house the Leland burned down 'playing with matches' as BOB
talks about.  Or even on purpose.  Say the young Leland, molested by
Robertson as some have said, finally had enough and purposly sets fire
to the house, using, say, oil as a starter on the
sleeping/uncouncious(sp) Robertson.  The emotional trama(sp) from this
could explain a lot in Leland's behavior and why BOB is in Leland.  This
might also explain the burning oil smell when BOB is around.
Of course, there are some holes (Mike and BOB working together), but
then every theory has some weaknesses.
Any takers??

John
C
C
C
C
C
C
A
A
A
A
A

In article <m0igQNB-00008hC@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> connie.davis@amail.amdahl.com writes:
> >Heard on Good Morning America this morning.....  Joan Lunden did an
> >interview with Peggy Lipton.  Peggy hinted that there may be a new love
> >interest on the horizon for Norma.  (I kinda liked Big Ed myself)

At our TwinPeaksParty this week, someone mentioned hearing a rumour that
Clarence Williams III (Linc from the Mod Squad) would be making an appearance
on Twin Peaks.  It'd be neat if *he's* her love interest!
                        ^^^^
On second thought, perhaps 'groovy' would be a better word!

-- Bernie Roehl, University of Waterloo Electrical Engineering Dept Mail: broehl@watserv1.waterloo.edu OR broehl@watserv1.UWaterloo.ca BangPath: {allegra,decvax,utzoo,clyde}!watmath!watserv1!broehl Voice: (519) 885-1211 x 2607 [work]

In article <16486@brahms.udel.edu> conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad) writes:
> >And my interpretation of the final cell scene is a little different from
> >some I've seen.  I thought BOB took off pretty soon after he announced
> >he would, leaving Leland more or less comatose.  The sprinklers woke him
> >up, now (for the very first time) will full memory of all he'd done, and
> >he went berserk at the horror of it.  He killed himself deliberately, by
> >smashing his head repeatedly against the door.

This was what I originally thought, partly because Hawk's eyes seem to follow
something up and out of Leland at the precise moment he slumps.

However, as others at the TwinPeaksParty I was at pointed out, the sprinklers
are soaking both Leland and Bob, which implies that Bob had not yet left.
-- Bernie Roehl, University of Waterloo Electrical Engineering Dept Mail: broehl@watserv1.waterloo.edu OR broehl@watserv1.UWaterloo.ca BangPath: {allegra,decvax,utzoo,clyde}!watmath!watserv1!broehl Voice: (519) 885-1211 x 2607 [work]

In article <48964@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> cromwell@acsu.buffalo.edu (mark j cromwell) writes:
> >  I still interpret the ending of the last episode as BOB, having departed
> >Leland, entering the body of an owl.

Actually, I hadn't thought of this interpretation.  Makes sense.  Of course,
what's the bright light the owl's coming out of?

> >We know that BOB plays
> >a part in the rest of the 9 episodes so the fetus idea is unlikely. It'd
> >just take too darn long.

Unless they switch from "one day per episode" to "one month per episode" :-)
-- Bernie Roehl, University of Waterloo Electrical Engineering Dept Mail: broehl@watserv1.waterloo.edu OR broehl@watserv1.UWaterloo.ca BangPath: {allegra,decvax,utzoo,clyde}!watmath!watserv1!broehl Voice: (519) 885-1211 x 2607 [work]

Am I misremembering, or wasn't one of the giant's clues
"Owls are not what they seem."

In article <1990Dec3.173456.16348@watserv1.waterloo.edu> alternat@watserv1.waterloo.edu (Ann Hodgins) writes:
> >Where is BOB now?
> > 
> >I can't imagine Leo's pugnacious soul welcoming Bob in.
> > 
> >Nadine seems vulnerable but she is a very positive person, her energy
> >is all constructive and good, albeit misguided.
> > 
Pugnacious is the kindest term for Leo imaginable...and Nadine is 
positive only if you are of the ivy or mistletoe lobby: she is a 
vacuum cleaner...with teeth. Both would be whomp-em plus hosts for
Bob. Leo, being the more obvious choice given the teaser at the
end of  the last episode, I'll vote for Nadine: hermaphroditism
got short shrift in the Laura Palmer era.

-- Jeff Davis davis@keats.ca.uky.edu Lots Available

 All these comments about Albert not being in character during
the 12-1 episode tempts me to post a little observation:

 During the Drawing Room Sce... er, the scene at the bar, you
can see Albert pour a drink from a hip flask, take a healthy
slug, and then pass the flask to Cooper. The camera is panning
over this bit of business to the anteroom, so it's easy to
miss. Is Albert a lush? Is Cooper?
 Maybe Albert is too hungover to be his usual cheery self;
maybe he's been hanging out too much with the Judge.

 The same scene brings out a curious trait about the product
placements: they all seem to be for products that don't,
or no longer, exist. Note the two "Best" Genuine Draft neon
signs on the walls: they look just like "Miller" Genuine
Draft signs.
 And Leland's convertible with the "Adam's" dealer logo
on the trunklid, perhaps from a local GM dealership/Abortion
Clinic?
 Of course, James' "Hog" is real enough... Do they ever
actually call it a Harley Davidson?
 Well, this may have some bearing on the proposition that
TP occurs in an alternate, and mostly similar Universe,
where objective Evil exists, and not only do people talk
to logs, the logs talk back.

 Goodnight Bambi Sickafoose- Whoever you are.

--
  Aran Guy  guy@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov         LBL
    Knobtwister and Buttonpusher           And me be me
 SuperHeavy Ion Linear Accelerator         Our opinions
 The Accelerator that wouldn't Die         Rarely agree.

/ hpopd:alt.tv.twin-peaks / tneff@bfmny0.BFM.COM (Tom Neff) / 10:28 am  Dec  3, 1990 /

> > Nah, I bet Audrey meets Windom Earle (I'll go with that spelling based
> > on the Toronto Star article -- if someone has an authoritative
> > correction please post it).  He's a master of disguise, probably
> > unhinged and an automatic rival for Cooper.  Perfect to wow Audrey,
> > who has a thing for Special Agents.

----------

Didn't Audrey "have a thing" for Special Agent Cooper because she thought he
would take her away from Twin Peaks, and that they would travel to exotic
places together?

I don't think she specifically had a thing about Special Agents.

I can get the quote from the relevant episode in the first series if anyone is
interested.

Richard.

You know Gary, I agree partially with some of your points about
Lynch.  I have felt for a long time that his movies were style
over substance, but I always get the impression while watching them
that this is a man that is capable of directing a masterpiece.
I think he needs to be coupled with a plot writer that understands
his directing style.

I think that Lynch is still learning his trade and I hope that
he matures so that his work can achieve his potential.  In Lynch's
movies, I get the feeling he is just being violent and strange for
the sake of violence and strangeness, but I also feel that he
has a real talent with images and mood and that he really has his
finger on many of the dark sides of our culture and that some day
he may create a truly brilliant piece of film.  

I do not think he has done it yet, but I personally think that
Twin Peaks is his best effort yet.  I think there are things wrong
with TP of course, but it is a very interesting TV show and I
really look forward to seeing it.  Some of it is incredibly
drippy.  I really wish Bob had nuked either James or Donna.
Either one I can handle, but together they are really annoying.

As for the quick resolution and explanations, I get the FEELING
that maybe the show was forced into something like that by
the networks.  Now, before you get annoyed, I am not defending
Lynch.  It is very possible that it is just Lynch's directing 
style.  But I would have been happy to see the murder mystery
go on until at least the end of the season, and I wish they
had kept Leland around as Bob's host for awhile.  But there
have been indications of real public dissatisfaction with the
show, and it would not suprise me if Lynch and Frost had to
interrupt the normal 'flow' of the show to wrap up the Laura
Palmer mystery in order to prop up the ratings.  Also, I kind of
liked the explanations even though they did seem pretty forced.
I think they did a pretty good job in the episode where they
'revealed the killer', but the last episode did not seem to be
paced very well.

One thing that this show is good at is leaving LOTS of questions
open from week to week.  I think that the plot development in this
show is pretty good.  I think the Lynch and Frost DO know what is
going to happen more or less.  I think they were a little sloppy
with the wrap up of Laura's murder.  I look forward to the
rest of the shows this season and hopefully next season.  I hope
they take their time resolving the Bob thing, because I 
really kind of like the plot.

The show's weeknesses are a certain bit of sappiness that may be
intentional, but is still very annoying.  The show does not
treat the main characters very well.  Cooper did almost nothing
to figure out the Laura murder.  It was all handed to him on a platter.
There is no reason to think that Cooper is anything but a bumbling
hack as an investigator.  So far the show seems to have a weakness
at handling resolutions.  Almost nothing was resolved for a year
and a half, and then we get a paragraph explaining why it was
all obvious.  I felt that the explanation made sense more or
less, but the pacing felt very wrong.  Of course there are
more weaknesses, but I have typed too long....

Doug

Be sure you have plenty of disk space before you start.

I ftp'd the four parts of TPstack (TPstack.cpt.Hqx.part[1..4], 2153K) to
a Unix system (be sure to say "binary" to ftp before copying the files),
then pushed them to a Mac attached to the network by a Gatorbox. The
files at this point had Mac type/creator codes of TEXT/Unix.

I ended up using the BinHqx 1.0 DA (Howard Fukuda, Rainbow Software;
Shareware, $5) to unencode and join ...part[1..4]. BinHex 5.0 would
probably have worked too. (I first tried the BinHex function built
into Stuffit Classic v1.6, and had no success because Stuffit seems
to use a different format for splitting files.)

The tricky part in all this involves the type/creator codes. Unless the
codes match what the program is expecting, it won't "see" the files to
open them. First I used BinHqx to encode and split a test file, then
used MacTools 7.2 to look at the type/creator of one of the fragments:
it was TEXT/BthX. Then changed the creator codes of ...part[1..4] to BthX.

Now the BinHqx "Join & Decode" function could see the files. The output
of Join & Decode is TPstack.cpt (1584K), a self-unpacking application
made with the Compressor utility. Double-clicking  it produces (at last!)
TPstack (2018K).

After all the work, that cuppa coffee sure tasted good!

-->Keith
--
Keith Dawson   <dawson@epps.kodak.com>     508-670-4025  
Atex Advanced Publishing Systems      Fax: 508-670-4033
165 Lexington Rd.  (400/165L)  Billerica MA  USA  01821

In article <59542@microsoft.UUCP> jeffhi@microsoft.UUCP (Jeff HINSCH) writes:
> >
> >I'm willing to bet large denominations of $$ on 
> >this premise: Bob was an actual rat at the end
> >of the show (I think his presence went down the
> >drain behind Leland's head and inhabited a rat),
> >and the owl we saw was attacking the rat.  Did
> >you see how the camera's perspective ran through
> >the ditch past small drain pipes and a branch?
> >
Well Jeff, despite the fact that it is in competition with mine, I like
this theory a lot.  I think Bob is rather cute but he is a little ratty
looking. The perspective was like that of a small animal and I noticed that
the heartbeat in the background was too fast for a normal human although
a human under a lot of stress might have a heartbeat that fast. Animals
hearts beat much faster than human hearts.
Also, I noticed in the previous episode the picture over Audrey's shoulder
as she was talking with Cooper in his room. It seemed to show flying
creatures grabbing smaller creatures in their talons. I thought
it was either of owls and rabbits or kingfishers and fish.
 
I assumed that the owl in the final scene was Bob grabbing a soul but as you
say it could be another owl-spirit grabbing Bob.
 
ann hodgins

In article <1990Dec2.092715.1737@lavaca.uh.edu> jet@karazm.math.uh.edu (J. Eric Townsend) writes:
> >They had the *perfect* chance to examine the horrible world of
> >child abuse....
> >But noooooo.  L/F have to back out, and instead of realising that people
> >really are *that* "evil" on their own, they have to go and invent
> >"BOB"....

     I think you've got completely the wrong idea about this --
you're looking at it much too literally.  BOB is a metaphor for
the evil side of everyone's personality.  Even if you don't
believe in vampires, vampire stories can tell you lots about
avarice, sex, obsession, compulsion... as many writers have
shown over the years.  _Twin Peaks_, the modern horror story cum
soap opera, has a different focus and different plot devices.
The idea, though, is similar.

     I spent the weekend reading _The Secret Diary of Laura
Palmer_, and there's no doubt in my mind that Jennifer Lynch,
at least, is very aware of the symptoms of survivors of child
abuse, and the process by which victims perpetuate the "evil"
which they feel has become a part of them.  The fact that it's
represented as an evil spirit migrating from abuser to victim is
just a literary device (but a very powerful one, IMHO).

--
--Jamie.Original material copyright (c) 1990 by Jamie Andrews;
  jha@lfcs.ed.ac.ukfor distribution only on unmoderated USENET newsgroups.
      "Whoa dere, renaissance guy!  Ya coulda stopped at out ta lunch!"

In Pittsburgh they showed the 1 dec TP on 2 Dec at 9.30 am.  There
was a problem with the VCR and I lost about 10 mintues in the middle
right after Donna goes to talk to leland.  Could someone please email
me what happened after here for about the following 10 minutes?  I
have a feeling that something big happened, but I cannot see it on the
tape.

thanks

jen

/=============================================================================\
|Jennifer Quirin                          student, Carnegie Mellon University |
|quirin@{cs,ece,andrew}.cmu.edu           <= internet                         |
|known_world!harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!jq07  <= uucp                             |
|=============================================================================|
|Opinions expressed herein are not CMU's, and are probably not even mine,     |
|since I am not really posting: I am hard at work as I am supposed to be.     |
\=============================================================================/

This is the first time I've ever responded to one of Mr. Newell's posts,
IMHO the best thing to do is not to flame him, but to sit back, think
about what he said, and just LAUGH!


________________________________________
_____ This is not a Love Song! _____________
________________________________________
______ Rob "Not BOB" Knapp _____________
________________________________________

In article <16095@bfmny0.BFM.COM> tneff@bfmny0.BFM.COM (Tom Neff) writes:
> >
> >But let's give Ray Wise a standing O for his work these two seasons!  He
> >had a tough job and turned in one of the more memorable sustained
> >performances in years.  I agree with the person who wished him an Emmy
> >nomination, somewhat to my own surprise.  Doubt he'll get it though;
> >it's tough when you leave early in the season.
 
I agree, his confession as BOB was so well done and then in the same
episode he regresses to an innocent child totally believably. Good work!
> >
> >               *  *  *
> >
> >The moment that really made me smile: Major Briggs arriving on cue with
> >the Room Service Waiter.  I love the character of the Major and I get a
> >tremendous kick out of the strength Don Davis brings to him.  On some
> >level the Log Lady doesn't make much sense, but the Major is perfect at
> >all levels.  His utterly mysterious high-tech assignment ("Dad... what
> >do you DO?" yields, with perfectly gentle equanimity, "Son, that's
> >classified") somehow leaves him wide open to the world of spirit and
> >fate.  And he has visibly grown in two seasons, rather than merely
> >flopping around like some of the younger people.
> >
I'm afraid the Major will die soon - his dream seemed to be a forshadowing
of his own death. Hope not, I really like him, pompous and banal as he
is. He has warmth and I think he truly has wisdom too. For instance he
considered himself *privileged* to give the old waiter a ride, he
seemed to see it as a honour done to him by the old man, not vice versa.
> >
> >If BOB moves into Leo, I don't know how he's going to spook his way
> >around a spinal cord injury, but this isn't ST ELSEWHERE is it!  :-) It
> >sounds like a great hideout though: who would suspect a vegetable in a
> >wheelchair?
> >

So far, Twin Peaks writers have respected the laws of nature.
I think they will continue to do so. BOb would not chose a broken
human to occupy any more than he would try to drive a wrecked car.
 

> >By the way, can't they *find* any of the blue drug Gerard needs to
> >suppress MIKE and stop dehydrating to death?  Or are they deliberately
> >withholding it for some reason?  Will Bill Bennett do a guest shot? :-)
> >
they are deliberately withholding it.
> >               *  *  *
> >
a.h.

   When I saw the heading, I thought this was the last gasp of the
Ben-did-it school.  Laura says MY FATHER killed me.

/ hpopd:alt.tv.twin-peaks / buchman@osf.org (Terri Buchman) /  3:59 pm  Dec  3, 1990 /

I am looking forward to the new arc about Cooper vs. Earle.   This could turn out to be a confrontation between Cooper as Sherlock Holnes and Earle as 
Moriarty and I think that would be loads of fun to follow.

----------

And Harry S. as Watson?

The episode of Dec 1 seemed to me to be the equivalent of Sidney
Carlton's speech at the end of _A Tale of Two Cities_: someone
itching to get things over with was standing nearby. A beadle at
ABC must have come to the conclusion that the tale of Laura Palmer's
murder was a millstone to be discarded rather than the anchor
to the show. From my perspective, they need NEVER have solved the
mystery. The structure to the episode was non-existent: the 
scene between Donna and Leland added nothing. I just watched
and wondered if the blackness of the sunglasses had been optically
enhanced. Someone else has already commented on how the scene
at the roadhouse was needlessly deus-ex-machina : that Cooper had
enough conventional evidence to name Leland. On top of that,
Lynch/Frost threw in a "dark and stormy night." What's a matter,
don't you like us anymore?

My gut feeling is that the numinous elements of the show got away from
them, rather than vice-versa. Stories like the rape of Persephone
have a life of their own, and fumble fingered artists who try
to latch on to them had best be careful. I'm thinking here of the
beautiful poem of Robert Graves "To Juan at Winter Solstice." (I'm
quoting from memory, forgive me.) "There is one story and one
story only/ That will repay your telling/Whether as gifted child or
learned bard...lines that startle with their shining such common tales/
As they wander into" (I'm real unclear here...but it concludes:) "But
nothing promised that is not performed." Lynch/Frost thought they
could come through, but either commerce or their own limitations
thumped 'em up.

Someone else has already pointed out that a Holmes/Moriarty tale
is coming up. Here's hoping they have enough juice for that opera!
 


-- Jeff Davis davis@keats.ca.uky.edu Lots Available

I think it's going very well, don't you?

                     -Albert Rosenfield

I'd always assumed that Frost provided the "structure" (eg. plot) and Lynch
provided the squiggly bits. Does anyone know how they actually co-wrote the
series?

Strangely enough, it never struck me that TP had no plot - strikes me it has
plot a-plenty.

Richard.

The moderator of n.a.n. seems to be taking his time to post the results of
this vote.  So for those of you who have been wondering, here's the scoop.

There were 367 YES votes, and 192 NO votes (total 559).

Although there were more than 100 YES votes, 367 / 559 is only about 65%.
So I suppose the newsgroup will not be created.

The list of voters will appear sooner or later in n.a.n. as well as this
newsgroup.  Please verify that your vote is correct, if you voted.

Will

--
    Will Bell     | Don't toy with me,    | Don't try this at home, kids. This 
 bell@cs.tamu.edu | woman!                | should only be done by trained,   
CS Dept Texas A&M |       -- H. Simpson   | professional idiots. --Plucky Duck
------- Disclaimer:  Not an official message of Texas A&M University -------

Twin Peaks has been compared to a movie devoted to
character development and atmosphere. One poster
went so far as to say that a movie can be good *without* a plot.
I offer Jacob's Ladder as an example of that kind of movie.
How Jacob feels, how his character develops, that is all that matters,
not whether the plot holds together or the events in the plot actually
happened.
 
I think that Lynch leans towards being that kind of film maker.
Despite the care that has obviously gone into realism I think that
Lynch is most interested in the spiritual realities.  Certainly he
is not a  respector of linear time. He seems to combine eras that are
spiritually similar, have a similar mood. That is why I doubt that it
matters if Leland was old enought to know big band tunes or if
Bob bought his jean jacket when they were in style. I think it is
the feelings associated with music and costume that appeal to Lynch.
 
ann hodgins

1) Hawk's Staring at Leland: Hawk can't "see" BOB but is trying to
   because he knows that he'll be back in another form.

2) Who Shot Coop? Windham Earl? maybe I've picked up theories that
   Earl is a master of disguise (thanks, Abby) so he could already
   be in TP but be someone else (Hmm...Caterine really did die in the
   fire and it's Earl disguised as Catherine disguised as Mr. Tajamora?
   Nah!) ("Do you remember your summers in Scotland on the sheep farm"
   "No!" "Yes! I was the Sheep. Baaa!")

3) 25 years later (i.e. Coop & Laura's Dream)
   possible interpretations: 
   Coop was seen as an old man because that will be when he finally
   catches BOB (or is caught by BOB)
   Laura's diary said that BOB said he was afraid of one man, MIKE
   and she wondered if Coop was him. Maybe this is foreshadowing?

   Gerhard (if alive) will get far away from TP and attempt to keep
   MIKE drugged into submission so if MIKE wants to hunt BOB (I'm not sure)
   He will have to find a new host and Cooper also wants to see BOB 
   caught and is willing to experiment with spirits (Cooper = man who
   cages birds, thanks Alexx.) this could mean Coop cages BOB or Coop
   will become a cage for MIKE, although I wouldn't want an ex-mass
   murderer who's seen the face of God in my body.

   Aside: We don't know what MIKE's real face is, do we?

   Aside 2: I just lent my 1st season tapes to a friend who noticed
            that when Laura was first realized to be missing, Sarah
            said that she was probably with Leland (prophetic.)

4) Pittsburgh: My Theories
   How long ago was Pittsburgh?
   Maybe something happened there that got Coop interested in Mysticism
   (including maybe his Tibet dream?) I assume that Windham Earl was
   there and played a major part in what happened. Whatever happened it
   brought Coop to the attention of a number of spirits (wasn't MIKE
   staring directly at Coop when he mentioned that he and BOB used to
   be PARTNERS, I saw this as a W. Earl reference.)

Anyway that's more that enough so
Toodles
Gideon

In article <12271@milton.u.washington.edu> mork@blake.u.washington.edu (David Mork) writes:
> >
> >
> >6.  New theory on Dick:  How could he get Lucy pregnant if he's gay :-)
 
Haven't you ever heard of "swinging both ways?"
 
a.h.

In article <DVymT1w163w@zitt> joe [Joe Zitt] writes:
> >alternat@watserv1.waterloo.edu (Ann Hodgins) writes:
> >
>> >>        I was disappointed too.  I know a number of people who believe in
>> >> demons. And once people get that idea, all other explanations for bad
>> >> behavior are discarded. People stop thinking. They stop using their imaginati
>> >> To come so close to confronting family abuse and to opt for a supernatural
>> >> explanation, that's a cop out to me.
>> >>  
> >On the other hand, if (>IF<) there are such things as demons, we might 
> >block any chance of defeating them by acting as if they don't exist. 
> >Imagine if BOB had continued his killing spree while Leland underwent 
> >long-term psychoanalysis.
> >
             This is what my religous friends always say to me in
response. They say that demons are real and to deny that reality is to
be more vulnerable to them.  Stalemate. 
 
I agree with Cooper that it is important ultimately to know what you are
dealing with if you want to put a stop to it.
 
ann hodgins

In article <1990Dec4.143244.23022@watserv1.waterloo.edu> broehl@watserv1.waterloo.edu (Bernie Roehl) writes:

> >In article <48964@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> cromwell@acsu.buffalo.edu (mark j cromwell) writes:
>> >>  I still interpret the ending of the last episode as BOB, having departed
>> >>Leland, entering the body of an owl.

> >Actually, I hadn't thought of this interpretation.  Makes sense.  Of course,
> >what's the bright light the owl's coming out of?

Isn't that odd?...  That's absolutely the first interpretation that
occurred to me, and still seems the only possible one, just blindingly
obvious.  Consider:

Truman's final line, which went something like "What I want to know is,
if Bob IS real, and he left Leland...where is he now?"  And that
question is immediately answered by a point-of-view shot from BOB's
"eyes" zooming through the woods looking for a place to alight.  He
zooms ahead of us, makes contact (the blinding light), and his new host
flies into the shot:  an owl.  "The owls are not what they seem."  After
an episode so full of intensity, that last touch just surprised the
willies out of me.  What an ending!

And my interpretation of the final cell scene is a little different from
some I've seen.  I thought BOB took off pretty soon after he announced
he would, leaving Leland more or less comatose.  The sprinklers woke him
up, now (for the very first time) will full memory of all he'd done, and
he went berserk at the horror of it.  He killed himself deliberately, by
smashing his head repeatedly against the door.  (i.e., BOB's hosts do
not necessarily die when he leaves, but this one wanted to)  We saw
Albert give a quick headshake at one point in the scene, as if to say
"He's not going to make it," so his injuries must have been fatal to a
doctor's eye--it wasn't a mystically induced death as some are
claiming.

> >Unless they switch from "one day per episode" to "one month per episode" :-)

Well, the lack of clarity about what day it is, is almost inevitable as
we proceed in the series.  All soaps (which I don't mean negatively,
simply in the sense of "continuing drama") have to fudge the passing of
time to some extent, because days pass for the characters while weeks
pass for us, yet somehow they have to stay in synch with the general
passing of time.

Jon Alan Conrad

Here's a list of the things I think are unresolved after the 12/1 show:

1) Who shot Cooper?  Probably Jean Renault, from the make of the gun,
out of revenge for Cooper's arrest of Jacques.  But he would've had to
get down to the Great Northern awfully quickly following the arrest of
Jacques to account for this.

2) Who attacked Jacoby?  Possibly Leland.  The burning smell Jacoby and
Maddy smelled points towards this.  But Leland would've probably
mentioned this before he died.  Also, it wasn't a Bob-style attack.  I
think it was a new character or someone else in the show who is
associated with Bob -- another one of the devil worshippers.

3) Sarah Palmer's possible association with Bob, her attack the night of
Maddy's murder, and her vision of the white horse.  Probably we'll learn
something about this next week, at Leland's wake.

4) The Tremonds -- who are they, and are they responsible for Harold's
apparent suicide?  What caused Harold to become agoraphobic in the first
place?  Is there a coven of Devil worshippers in Twin Peaks, or what?

5) Leo's association with Leland or Bob: he set up Laura and Ronette for
Leland/Bob's attack, by getting Jacques out of the way and then leaving
himself.

6) Josie and her $5,000,000 check.

7) James's mom.

8) The whole Windham Earl thing.

9) Cooper's boss's reference to some strictly hush-hush business he was
involved in nearby.

10) Hank's involvement in Andrew's murder, and the meaning of the domino
symbolism.

-- J

In article <28197@megaron.cs.arizona.edu>, gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary Newell) 
expells:...
|>  This lack of adequate plot development seems to show up in the episodes 
|> where the viewer is hit over the head with a barage of little facts
|> all at once (the Leland did it episode and the last episode (why Leland
|> did it) are good examples of this). It is as if they are saying "well, we
|> really have to wrap this thing up - now what haven't we dealt with yet?
|> We'll put all that stuff in the last 10 minutes and be done with it".

This is called a 'style'.  You may or may not like it but why do you have
this incessant desire to force TP into a conventional mold?

|>  That is not to say that the show is without any merit. The unique and
|> interesting images are often "worth the price of admission" so to speak,
|> but the show could be better if it was more careful with its plot and
|> less focussed on simply being bizarre. IMHO of course.....

Does real life have a 'plot'?  Does 'Art' have to have a 'plot'?
Aren't you tired of all of the formulaic sitcoms and soap operas on TV?
Real Art should upset you (not numb you like 99.99% of television today).
Many European films seem plotless to Americans (because they don't follow
the traditional sexist action adventure schema : boy meets girl, boy loses
girl, boy is involved in a car/boat/spacecraft chase, boy gets girl back) -
they just look like a series of disconnected visual images/symbols/events.
Lynch/Frost never promised anyone a mystery/detective-story/soap-opera/
space-opera/sitcom/romantic-comedy or any other genre.
Relax.  And keep an open mind.


- Morrow

In article <3050@gmuvax2.gmu.edu> jhanks@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (John Hanks) writes:
> >
> >What about this for an idea.  BOB is from the lot next door as Leland
> >says, a house the Leland burned down 'playing with matches' as BOB
> >talks about.  Or even on purpose.  Say the young Leland, molested by
> >Robertson as some have said, finally had enough and purposly sets fire
> >to the house, using, say, oil as a starter on the
> >sleeping/uncouncious(sp) Robertson.  The emotional trama(sp) from this
> >could explain a lot in Leland's behavior and why BOB is in Leland.  This
> >might also explain the burning oil smell when BOB is around.
> >Of course, there are some holes (Mike and BOB working together), but
> >then every theory has some weaknesses.

But didn't MIKE say that he had encountered BOB around the time of the 
earlier out of state killing?  It is not too hard for me to believe that
the OAM met Leland/BOB galavanting around slashing up people, and that
MIKE's influence started BOB on his ritual killing bit.  Your idea about the
creation of BOB has a lot of merit however.

I think that it is important to remember that Lynch wants it ambiguous 
whether Leland is a desintigrating personality, or whether BOB is a malign
outside influence - with this in mind, it would seem sensible to suggest that
BOB cannot really exist outside of Leland, and that the scene at the end
of 12/1 may have been the 'spirit world' coming to claim BOB now that his
'host' has died.   Just a thought - it could be a completely different thing.

vik

--
" Ooooh .... Big Woo "
Suzanne Sugarbaker upon shooting Anthony Bouvier

In article <48964@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU>, cromwell@acsu.buffalo.edu (mark j
cromwell) says:
> >
> >In article <58366@brunix.UUCP> kph@cs.brown.edu (Kenneth Paul Herndon) writes:
>> >>
>> >>So BOB was able to change hosts as soon as Leland was about to die.
>> >>He knew it was coming, and skipped out at the last second.  I'll bet
>> >>he entered the unborn fetus inside of whatsherface upstairs as she was
>> >>presenting her ultimatum to the two could-be fathers.  So, this means
>> >>that there is now an UNBORN BOB waiting to be unleashed upon the world
>> >>in seven or eight months.  It would be a smart thing for him to lay
>> >>low for a while, and this is the perfect opportunity.
> >



                          (stuff deleted)            We know that BOB plays
> >a part in the rest of the 9 episodes so the fetus idea is unlikely. It'd
Bobby was acting pretty goofy in the highlights
> >for next week, maybe it's him. Then there is always Leo (brain damage),
> >Nadine (bonkers), and Donna (acting like Laura who BOB tried to possess).
> >
> >
> >
> >                                        - Mark Cromwell

I think Donna is an excellent candidate, especially since James has dumped
her.  Perhaps she allows BOB in to get some revenge on James?

Leo is an obvious choice.  Who better to host than someone who can't say no?

WHat about Sarah Palmer?  Is BOB following bloodlines or family lines?  Does
Leland have any relatives in Pittsburgh?

-----------------------------------------------------
Kit Aikin  Penn State Univ.     "that's a yes"
Dept. of Psychology
Doo Doo Club member            KJA102@PSUVM

In article <16486@brahms.udel.edu> conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad) writes:
> >
> >And my interpretation of the final cell scene is a little different from
> >some I've seen.  I thought BOB took off pretty soon after he announced
> >he would, leaving Leland more or less comatose.  The sprinklers woke him
> >up, now (for the very first time) will full memory of all he'd done, and
> >he went berserk at the horror of it.  He killed himself deliberately, by

Well this should be easy to check. If I remember correctly, Leland's hair 
turned black again before he died. I think, but I'm not sure, his hair was 
still white when he started banging his head against the door. If someone
with a VCR bothers to check this out, it should be easy to see at what point
Leland's hair turned back to black. That's when Bob left Leland.

Hardeep.

-- In a recent survey 100% of the respondents responded yes to the question "are you being asked to respond to a survey". From this we conclude that the entire population of the United States was responding to a survey at that time.

It is too bad. How can the cancel the best show on TV? They put it in the
deadest time slot there is and expect it to do well?

I think that this season  China Beach is at its best. The tail end of last
season was getting bad, IMHO. It was daring, but poorly done. Now with
the flashbacks they are playing it a little safer, but doing a better
job on the whole. This gives the opprotunity for all the characters
to be more devoloped. We see who they really are, and who they later 
become. The only thing I didn't like is the fact that they made
McMurphy already married, thus spoiling any future stories of her
and the Doc getting back together. (not that they have much of a
future).

I have some questions: Did the actor who plays Boonie really lose his
leg? I remember he had a leg before, and the shows where he doesn't
have a leg seem pretty realistic. ARe they doing some fancy camera
tricks, or maybe I am just easily fooled. And another one: What
happened before Nam was over? Did the Doctor and McMurphy really
get a legal marrige from the dying priest, and then what happened
after that?

And if anyone has been taping all the episodes, E-MAIL ME!

Thanks

In article <16486@brahms.udel.edu> conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad) writes:
> >In article <1990Dec4.143244.23022@watserv1.waterloo.edu> broehl@watserv1.waterloo.edu (Bernie Roehl) writes:
> >
>> >>In article <48964@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> cromwell@acsu.buffalo.edu (mark j cromwell) writes:

> >And my interpretation of the final cell scene is a little different from
> >some I've seen.  I thought BOB took off pretty soon after he announced
> >he would, leaving Leland more or less comatose.  The sprinklers woke him
> >up, now (for the very first time) will full memory of all he'd done, and
> >he went berserk at the horror of it.  He killed himself deliberately, by
> >smashing his head repeatedly against the door.  (i.e., BOB's hosts do
> >not necessarily die when he leaves, but this one wanted to)  We saw

They flashed back and forth between Leland and Bob screaming AFTER the
sprinklers came on, so Bob was still there.

WHO smashed Leland's head into the door, I can't figure out.  BOB had
told Cooper to "watch Leland when I pull the plug" (or words to that
effect), which could mean several things:

1)  Bob made Leland kill himself so Bob could leave

2)  Bob made Leland kill himself just for kicks--it wasn't necessary
    in order for Bob to leave his host

3)  After Bob left, Leland remembered everything he'd done and killed 
    himself.

> >Jon Alan Conrad


--Louise

In article <17764@shlump.nac.dec.com>, boyajian@ruby.dec.com (Cisco's Buddy) writes...
<In article <90331.140833TEF102@psuvm.psu.edu>, TEF102@psuvm.psu.edu writes...
< 
<} If Coop's ex-partner is older thant Leland, it might even explain
<} Leland's newly acquired taste in music from the 40's.
< 
<Ah, what makes you say that Leland's taste in 40's music is "newly acquired"?
< 
<I still fail to understand why so mny people think Leland's musical taste
<is signficant. *I* like 40's music and I wasn't born until 1953.
< 

I certainly hope you don't put on 40's music and cry uncontrollably and
feel an obessive compulsion to dance with anyone in the room! That's the
difference. Leland's use of 40's music was hardly for relaxation. There was
a ritual involved.

Anyway, all these questions have been answered (somewhat) now that Leland's
no longer with us. I noticed that when Leland played music (12/1 episode),
BOB was seen to be the one reacting - not Leland.

--
John Howells
howells@earth.arc.nasa.gov 
howells@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov

I believe that Twin-Peaks is Lynch's attempt to inject those things that
he cares about into the rather limited and overly structured form of
the TV serial.  What does Lynch care about?  In a recent interview in
Paris Match (sometime in October, if I remember rightly), Lynch
stated absolutely that plot had no interest for him.

Lynch's only interest in movie making is in the visual presentation of
interesting atmospheres and environments.  Of course, television viewers
require much more in plot than Lynch will usually deliver.  This must be
where Frost comes in.  Of course, the balancing (and explaining) of
Lynch's images with Frost's plotting is not an easy task.

==============================================================================
|  Greg Anderson  |   hpcuhd!grega      |      grega@hpcuhd.HP.COM           |
==============================================================================
| "It isn't necessary to be rich and famous to be happy.  It's only          |
|  necessary to be rich." -- Alan Alda                                       |
==============================================================================

In article <16486@brahms.udel.edu> conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad) writes:
> >In article <1990Dec4.143244.23022@watserv1.waterloo.edu> broehl@watserv1.waterloo.edu (Bernie Roehl) writes:
> >
>> >>In article <48964@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> cromwell@acsu.buffalo.edu (mark j cromwell) writes:
> >
> >And my interpretation of the final cell scene is a little different from
> >some I've seen.  I thought BOB took off pretty soon after he announced
> >he would, leaving Leland more or less comatose.  The sprinklers woke him
.... 
 

There is a shot of Bob under the sprinklers shouting with arms outstretched.
Then the head banging starts. I think it is Bob killing his host.
Then Bob left leaving only a dying host with wretched memories.
I figure either the memories came back because Bob was holding them at
bay and when Bob left the memories came back automatically or else the
head injuries somehow broke through Leland's barriers to recollection.
> >
a.h.

In article <9741@fy.sei.cmu.edu> dd@sei.cmu.edu (Dennis Doubleday) writes:


   Another poster mentioned disappointment with the final, explanatory
   scene.  I admit it was a letdown after the beauty of Leland's death
   scene (the sprinkler system idea was inspired--a symbolic cleansing of
   Leland's psyche, the extinguishing of the fire with which he has
   walked for 40 years).  But there was one exchange in that scene that
   chillingly makes the connection between the literal and the symbolic
   level:

   TRUMAN:  I don't know, I've been in these woods for a long time, but
   I've never seen anything like this.  I'm having a hard time believing
   this. (Not verbatim, but words to that effect).

   COOPER: Harry, is it easier to believe that a man would rape and
   murder his daughter?

   In the real world, the unspoken answer to the question is "Yes".  And
   that is the horror of it.

Actually I believe in the current state of our society the answer
would be "No". I am disappointed because we don't need another
supernatural explanation as to why people abuse their children. We
need the shocking truth presented that they do it because their
parents did it to them, and their children will do it as well unless
the cycle is broken.

We also don't need another explanation that makes the issues of abuse
any less common than it really is. With 1/3 of the girls, and 1/7 of
the boys (which is probably really 1/3 as well) being sexually abused
by a family member before the age of 18, we have a crisis. Throw in
physical and verbal abuse and probably 1 in 2 people grew up in
dysfunctional families.

These problems touch every aspect of our society and no social group
is exempt of its impact. Why do we need Killer Bob as a way to explain
the crimes against children by their families? Because it is easier
than admitting that Leland is severly dysfunctional for his own
reasons and he will pass that dysfunction on forever if we don't
address it. No, Killer Bob is a cop out to make Twin Peaks remain
palatible to the American public.


--

Dan Pritchett                      | ARPA/Internet: dlp@zule.EBay.Sun.COM
Sun Federal System Engineer        | UUCP:          ...!sun!dlp
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've read plenty of books, about good guys and crooks.
And I've learned much from both of their styles...
                      --Jimmy Buffet

In article <28216@megaron.cs.arizona.edu>, gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary
Newell) writes:
|>Path: ut-emx!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!noao!arizona!gln
|>From: gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary Newell)
|>Newsgroups: alt.tv.twin-peaks
|>Subject: Re: Lynch - CRITICISM!!!
|>Message-ID: <28216@megaron.cs.arizona.edu>
|>Date: 4 Dec 90 02:04:48 GMT
|>References: <28197@megaron.cs.arizona.edu>
<1990Dec3.172554.267@iowasp.physics.uiowa.edu>
|>Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson
|>Lines: 65
|>
|>In article <1990Dec3.172554.267@iowasp.physics.uiowa.edu>,
wilson@iowasp.physics.uiowa.edu (Peter D. Wilson) writes:
|>> In article <28197@megaron.cs.arizona.edu>, gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary
Newell) writes:
|>> > [summary of TP criticism deleted...]
|>> > [don't bitch, you've read it all before.]
|>
|>>   A movie can have absolutely no plot and still be good, though.
|>
|>For example? I cannot think of a movie with *no* plot that can
|>be considered good - strange yes, unique yes, but good? I don't know...
|>
|>
|>gln

For one:
Koyaanisquatsi.
No plot.
No dialogue.
No actors (per se, still it has many characters...)
And yet, quite a film. Even a sequel!

Notice, please, gln, that I am stating that it is a _good_ film, not 
necessarily a film you would like.  Be aware of the distinction I am
drawing here.
                                                                           
___________________________________________________________________________
"Diane, I'm holding in my hand a small box of  |  If you can't reach me by
chocolate bunnies." -- Dale Cooper             |  this method, give up.
Hey! I didn't eat the mousse! -Meaning of Life |  js9g@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu

In article <2954@skye.cs.ed.ac.uk> jha@lfcs.ed.ac.uk (Jamie Andrews) writes:
> >In article <1990Dec2.092715.1737@lavaca.uh.edu> jet@karazm.math.uh.edu (J. Eric Townsend) writes:
>> >>They had the *perfect* chance to examine the horrible world of
>> >>child abuse....
>> >>But noooooo.  L/F have to back out, and instead of realising that people
>> >>really are *that* "evil" on their own, they have to go and invent
>> >>"BOB"....
> >
> >     I think you've got completely the wrong idea about this --
> >you're looking at it much too literally.  BOB is a metaphor for
> >the evil side of everyone's personality.  Even if you don't
> >believe in vampires, vampire stories can tell you lots about
> >avarice, sex, obsession, compulsion... as many writers have
> >shown over the years.  _Twin Peaks_, the modern horror story cum
> >soap opera, has a different focus and different plot devices.
> >The idea, though, is similar.
> >
> >     I spent the weekend reading _The Secret Diary of Laura
> >Palmer_, and there's no doubt in my mind that Jennifer Lynch,
> >at least, is very aware of the symptoms of survivors of child
> >abuse, and the process by which victims perpetuate the "evil"
> >which they feel has become a part of them.  The fact that it's
> >represented as an evil spirit migrating from abuser to victim is
> >just a literary device (but a very powerful one, IMHO).
> >
I've been thinking about this too and feel that perhaps there are
ways of looking at this as a positive thing.  It is good that TP promotes
the diary because I agree with you that it casts a lot of light on the
effects of incest and abuse and the connection between that abuse and
drug use/promiscuity.
There are parallels between BOB and real abusers. People who have studied
child abuse say that their parents act as though their children are their
possessions. They try to * possess* them. Control and dominance are the
main motivations. TP shows that that is the 'spirit' of child abuse.
 
I found Leland's description of Bob's dream visits very similar to a child's
vague memory of an attack.  It is possible to see Leland and as a victim
who becomes a victimizer.
But to see all these positive signs is a bit of a stretch right now.
I hope that Twin Peaks does not degenerate into an owl hunt complete
with exorcisms and stakes in the heart.
 
ann hodgins
 
I hope that Lynch explores

In article <114030036@hpcuhd.HP.COM> grega@hpcuhd.HP.COM (Number 6) writes:
> >joe@zitt.cup.hp.com:
> >
>> >>Two glitches: Coop(?) said that Maddie's body had been found 2 days 
>> >>earlier, though it was only one episode ago. This is a second glitch in 
>> >>the 1 day, 1 episode scheme (the last 2 episode of Season 1 being the 
>> >>other.)

It's funny, but when they said Maddy was killed two days ago I 
naturally thought "Oh how *clever*....they've built in the 1 week
break!!!" In other words, one of OUR (viewers) weeks is one day in
twin peaks, even if the camera was "turned off" for a day (11/24).

Just shows to go ya how much intentionality I've injected into all
aspects of this damned thing.


-- ================================================================= Delia Cioffi: -- University of Houston: cioffi@menudo.uh.edu -- Stanford University: cioffi@psych.stanford.edu =================================================================

mork@blake.u.washington.edu (David Mork) writes:

> >6.  New theory on Dick:  How could he get Lucy pregnant if he's gay :-)

Disgusting reply follows . . . 

Geez, haven't you ever heard of artificial insemination?  What makes you
think that was a cigarette holder?  :-)
-- "SO be it! The fate of the UNIVERSE is in your hands!" "Talk about job-related stress."

tneff@bfmny0.BFM.COM (Tom Neff) writes:

> >The moment that really made me smile: Major Briggs arriving on cue with
> >the Room Service Waiter.  I love the character of the Major and I get a
> >tremendous kick out of the strength Don Davis brings to him.

Here here!  The Major seems to know his role is as messenger (what's his
first name, anyway?  Malachai?) and be content with it.  In some sense,
he's the most `centered' character we've seen.  Knows who he is, what he
is, and just lets it happen.
-- "SO be it! The fate of the UNIVERSE is in your hands!" "Talk about job-related stress."

In article <28608@usc> marks@skat.usc.edu (Louise Marks) writes:
> >WHO smashed Leland's head into the door, I can't figure out.  BOB had
> >told Cooper to "watch Leland when I pull the plug" (or words to that
> >effect), which could mean several things:
> >
> >1)  Bob made Leland kill himself so Bob could leave
> >
> >2)  Bob made Leland kill himself just for kicks--it wasn't necessary
> >    in order for Bob to leave his host
> >
> >3)  After Bob left, Leland remembered everything he'd done and killed 
> >    himself.

I don't think the Leland would have killed himself in such a violent manner-
I really don't think that it would have been his first reaction after realizing
what he has done to go ramming himself over and over again into a steel door;
therefore, I do believe BOB is responsible for this death as well, and I
believe that it very well could be combination between 1) and 2) above --
certainly BOB gets pleasure out of killing, and as others have suggested, BOB
must kill his host in order to leave.

Dave

"That would be a yes."

In article <16095@bfmny0.BFM.COM> tneff@bfmny0.BFM.COM (Tom Neff) writes:

> >If that spoiler about Cooper and Truman saying goodbye is true, and if
> >we sensibly assume MacLachlan outlasts Ontkean, then I'm not too
> >shocked.  Truman's importance in TWIN PEAKS has seldom been much more
> >than symbolic from the word go; lately he has dwindled to near
> >invisibility.  Guess they've been writing him out gracefully.  It's kind
> >of a shame; I'll miss his face.  He was wasted as a foil for Cooper's
> >stoic Aquarianisms; I hope he gets lots of good work now.


Why would Truman leave Twin Peaks?  He's the Sheriff, he's from there, it's
his home.  Cooper, on the other hand, is the stranger in town.  He holds no
ties to the town and since the reason he was called in has been solved, he
should be the one leaving.

However, I don't think there would be much of a show without Cooper.  We still
have several things about him to unravel, mainly the trips to OEJs and his
shooting.  Who knows what else will happen do Coop?


My candidate for BOB's next host--Windham Earle. 

Time for a jelly donut.
Jennifer

The post suggesting that Dick could not be the father of Lucy's baby has
two major flaws:

a.  Lucy said that they slept together (I think they slept together in
Horne's department store)

b.  The post suggested that Dick may be gay.  What suggested this to
you? Also, even if he was gay, it doesn't make him INCAPABLE of
fathering a child.  Why not suggest that Andy may be gay? It seems that
there is just as much evidence for that as for Dick.

Anyway, I like 12/1 episode, and I don't feel particularily insane...

MJS  Brandeis '89 (not PhD, just B.A.)

In article <MbKyC4K00jukFDNF0J@cs.cmu.edu> Jon.Webb@CS.CMU.EDU writes:
> >4) The Tremonds -- who are they

The young magician and the old Mrs. Tremond are the visionary
representations of Harold Smith and the real Mrs. Tremond,
respectively.  (Just as the Man From Another Place was the visionary
representation of Leland.)  Maybe it was Laura's sunglasses that
enabled Donna to see such a vision.

                           :: Jeff Makey

Department of Tautological Pleonasms and Superfluous Redundancies Department
    Disclaimer: I am just a guest of Logicon.
    Domain: Makey@Logicon.COM    UUCP: ucsd!snoopy!Makey

Tom Neff wrote:

> >The owl is Leland!

> >The owls are [hosts for] spirits who keep watch over Twin Peaks.  Leland
> >is the newest owl.  Not all owls are BOB's enemy, but Leland sure is.

I like this idea!  It seems to make a lot of sense.

This reminds me of the scene where Donna is giving her soliloquy in front
of Laura's grave.  Before she begins speaking, we see an owl in the branches
above the grave.  Then Donna begins her speech saying, "I'm not sure if you
can hear me," or something along those lines.  Could the owl have been
Laura, listening to Donna?

Of course there are still a few things this theory fails to explain.  The
most glaring example I can think of is the owl's face being superimposed
over BOB's.

--
bvickers@ics.uci.edu |       "We cannot decide whether that which
brett@ucippro.bitnet |        we call truth is really truth or
_____________________|        whether it merely appears that way
                              to us."      - Heinrich von Kleist

In article <MbKwlg600VpIR1RUwH@andrew.cmu.edu> rk3h+@andrew.cmu.edu (Robert J. Knapp) writes:

> >This is the first time I've ever responded to one of Mr. Newell's posts,
> >IMHO the best thing to do is not to flame him, but to sit back, think
> >about what he said, and just LAUGH!

Well, this figures.  People have been bitching at Gary for weeks,
telling him to quit yapping and say something constructive.  He
finally does, an article with no sneering, no insults, and (to me at
least) quite interesting. . . and gets *this* in reply.  If I were
Gary, I'd just say "why bother?"  (I hope he won't, though.)

-- * Rod Johnson * rjohnson@vela.acs.oakland.edu * (313) 650 2315 * "One thinks that one is tracing the outline of the thing's nature over and over again, and one is merely tracing round the frame through which we look at it." --Ludwig Wittgenstein

> > From: grega@hpcuhd.HP.COM (Number 6)
> >
Subject: Re: 12/1 episode queastions and analysis?
> >
> > Another thing along this line that bothers me is why Coop says that the
> > police picked up Ben AFTER Maddie was killed.  We saw those events happen
> > in the opposite order.  I guess screening order don't mean beens to this
> > show.

I was initially bothered by this, but if I remember that episode correctly
the Log Lady comes into the jail just as they're taking Ben down to the
holding cell, and given the error bars involved in estimating time of death
it isn't outrageous that they might make an hour plus error.

On the whole, it was nice that we finally got closure with respect to 
various issues. Leland was Bob's host the night Laura was killed;
Leland appears to have been Bob's only host, although he doesn't
seem to be in Leland at all times ("When he was inside I didn't
know, and when he was gone I didn't remember." "*Leland tells me*
you're going to Misoula -- MONTANA!"). (BTW, I thought it was clear
from what Bob said that he left Leland before Leland killed himself.
He just chose, as a parting gift, to let Leland know the things he
had done while Bob was in him.)

On the other hand, I tend to agree that the writing was awful. Albert
was out of character in every scene he appeared in, the scenes between
James and Donna were dreck, and the drawing room scene seemed cheap
and shoddy given that Coop should have been able to catch Leland using
purely mundane clues and methods (in particular, the bus station lie).
Also, the praise for tying things in from the dream (the gum, for instance)
seems odd. What, then, are we to make of the dwarf saying that Laura was
his cousin if the dwarf was supposed to be Leland? It seemed more 
retrofitting than anything else. Also, given that there wasn't much of 
a case against Ben if his blood didn't match the blood on the towel
and note, why the hell was he so concerned about getting Catherine's
testimony? 

Karl Kluge (kck@g.cs.cmu.edu)

I was under the impression that cooper getting the forestry merit
badge (in the preview) was his formal induction into The Bookhouse Boys.

As to the overall quality of the episode, I'd say it was mixed.  In
parts the writing was rather poor, & the director occaisionally tried too
hard to emulate DL, but there were many scenec that I found affecting.

With regard to Cooper's speech to Leland as he lay dying, it is a
paraphrase of the opening paragraphs of The Tibetan Book of the Dead.  The
actual text has "O, Prince" before each instruction.  The actual book should
be read in its entirety over the corpse as the spirit hovers nearby.  It is
also interesting to note that Leland's comment, "She's beautiful" indicates
that he is seeing one of the spirits the book warns about, rather than the
spirit of Laura, as the casual viewer may assume.  The book repeatedly warns
the dead/dying person to ignore any being he/she sees: they're snares, set to
draw the spirit into the cycle of rebirth again.  If you look for the light,
you can escape the cycle.

With this knowledge of Tibetan Buddhism, & the fact that Cooper has
professed a strong interest in Tibetan culture (I'm surprised he doesn't have
a Lhasa Apso), I found Leland's death scene to be one of the most moving and
satisfying scenes in the series so far wrt what the characters do & what they
*would* do given what we already know of them.  That this particular bit of
Tibetan culture has been bastardized elsewhere should not detract from ones 
appreciation of this scene.

My appy polly loggies if this has already appeared (which I doubt),
but as I'm taking the GRE math subject this Saturday, I shouldn't even be
posting this, much less catching up on att-p.

"Leland says you're going back to Missoula, MONTANA!"
George.Harris@samba.acs.unc.eduGe|ge

> > Is there, perhaps, a book or a poster that has photos
> >        of all the TP characters with their names? Anyone?    
If you were to buy the CD of the t.p. soundtrack, they provide
all the photos of the cast. Also, there is a back issue of People
mag. eeeww, that did the same.

A few questions for thought:

(1) When was the date of that last entry from Laura's diary that Mrs.
Tremond gave to Donna?

An earlier post says:

        February 23.  Tonight is the night that I die.  ...

... which would mean that Laura had her diary right up to the day before
she wandered out to the railroad car in the woods.

(2) When did she give the diary to Harold Smith?

At least a week or so before she died.  I seem to remember something
in the diary (as seen in a bookstore near you!) that she gave the
diary to Harold to prevent anything more from happening to it.

Which leaves the question:

(3) How did she get to the diary to make a last entry in it on the day
that she died, and then get that back to Harold?

"She went to visit Harold."  No, I get the feeling that we would have
been told if Laura had visited Harold on that day.

"She had pages of the diary still with her, and she wrote on those,
which were the bloodied ones found in the train car."  No again; I
think those were the ones that BOB had stolen, and then anyway how
would the page be neatly sent to Mrs. Tremond's mailbox with Donna's
name on it?

And I don't think Harold had anything to do with it -- you think he
would have willingly parted with even a single page?

I can just see Lynch and Frost sitting over a dimly-lit table, rubbing
their hands gleefully and conjuring up all sorts of ways to inject new
clues into the story with a hypodermic needle.

Contrived.  Too contrived, too clean, too neat.  Who cares who killed
Laura Palmer?  Leland was her murderer -- but he didn't _know_ that he
was, so basically Lynch is saying that everything that made the
audience think incriminated him, really _didn't_, because he's really
innocent at heart.  The whole first season contributed nothing --
sure, it was a really interesting social panorama, but now that you
know whodunit, it's obvious that nothing points to Leland any more
than anyone else from the first season.

And now the whole thing is cleared up in a dream.  I could see if
Laura named some man in Cooper's dream whom Cooper had never met,
maybe -- but wouldn't it have made a greater impact if he had really
been told that it was her _father_?  Just say that he had dreamed the
dream on the very first night, and remembered; this mystery could
easily have been over within a day or two.  Similarly, it could have
been dragged out for another season (renewed? Ha!).  The whole
resolution to the case rested not on the deductive abilities of an FBI
agent, but instead on when he would remember one fact from one dream.

It's as if Lynch is trying to say we're silly for thinking all those
little clues and suggestions and hidden references actually meant
something in the final reckoning.  Pardon me for trying to make sense
of any of it!

Now the writers are probably dancing in the streets.  "The murder's
over.  It's SOAP-OPERA TIME!"  Time to watch the hilarious antics of
Nadine back in high school again!  (Not.)  Gee, maybe BOB is posessing
the principal?

And, now that the case is closed, is there any reason for Cooper to
stay in town?  I'm eager to see how they work their way out of _that_
one.

It's the opinion of me and several other Twin Peaks one-time addicts
that this episode was merely a hallucination.  Lynch, go back and do
it the _right_ way.

     << Brian >>

| Brian S. Kendig      \ Macintosh |   Engineering,   | bskendig             |
| Computer Engineering |\ Thought  |  USS Enterprise  | @phoenix.Princeton.EDU
| Princeton University |_\ Police  | -= NCC-1701-D =- | @PUCC.BITNET         |
"It's not that I don't have the work to *do* -- I don't do the work I *have*."

From: alternat@watserv1.waterloo.edu (Ann Hodgins)

*There is a shot of Bob under the sprinklers shouting with arms outstretched.
*Then the head banging starts. I think it is Bob killing his host.

By the way, BOB was shouting the "darkness of future past" speech.  Anyone
else get the impression that this isn't just a bit of poetry, but is a
potent chant that BOB *had* to say in order to leave the host?  Granted,
it doesn't *always* make a spirit leave the host (MIKE can say it without
leaving the OAM), but it's definitely got some magical significance.

Jespah

jet@karazm.math.uh.edu (J. Eric Townsend) writes:

> > In article <1990Dec2.120405.3327@yenta.alb.nm.us> synth@yenta.alb.nm.us (Synt
>> > >jet@karazm.math.uh.edu (J. Eric Townsend) writes:
>> > >Have some news for you:  Lynch and Frost have been playing with BOB since
>> > >Day One (Episode 1.3, to be exact). 
> > 
> > Hm, I watched the first season and don't remember any mention of
> > BOB.  The first time I heard about  BOB was from the "Secret Diary.."

Sure they did. We saw him in the first episode (after the pilot), 
crouching by a couch by Sarah Palmer and Donna, right after LELAND had 
left the room. The character was credited as "Killer Bob." In the next 
episode, in Cooper's now-famous dream sequence, we saw BOB threatening to 
catch MIKE with his death bag, and to kill again. 

You know, it just occured to me - if only the gifted and the damned can 
see BOB's true face, which are we? 


**************************************************************************
"Mr. BOB, you've killed Theresa Banks,   *                Richard Barrett
 Laura Palmer, Jacques Renault, and      *             18004 146th Ave NE
 Maddy Ferguson. What are you going to   *          Woodinville, WA 98072
 do next?"                               *                (206)487-1312
"I'm going to Disneyland!"               *hikaru%halcyon.uucp@seattleu.edu
**************************************************************************

dup94@campus.swarthmore.edu writes:

> > I took for granted that Coop's been to Tibet, since it keeps springing up in
> > conversations, both on and off the show.  See "tibetan methods" 12/1.
> > Please enlighten me: What _is_ Coop's connection to Tibet?
> > 
>> > >Daniel


Cooper is a big Dalai Llama (sp) fan, and has been ever since the D.L. 
came to him in a dream, telling him how to deduce killers using rocks and 
bottles. 
He's never been there; in the season premiere, he says, into the tape 
recorder (which he have seen zero of lately) "And it goes without saying 
that someday I would like to visit Tibet."

**************************************************************************
"Mr. BOB, you've killed Theresa Banks,   *                Richard Barrett
 Laura Palmer, Jacques Renault, and      *             18004 146th Ave NE
 Maddy Ferguson. What are you going to   *          Woodinville, WA 98072
 do next?"                               *                (206)487-1312
"I'm going to Disneyland!"               *hikaru%halcyon.uucp@seattleu.edu
**************************************************************************

From various people....
*::} One of the people I watch the show with was sure that what the magician-
*::} boy said was "J'ai un ami sous le terre" -- 'I have a friend under the
*::} earth.' Much more ominous than that bit about the 'solitary soul.'
*
*::They should clean the wax out of their ears. It's been confirmed here by
*::someone with a closed-caption decoder that he said "I am/have a solitary
*::soul."
[more arguing about reliability of closed-captioning]

I just want to point out, for people who haven't been reading this group
for long, that we THRASHED THIS TO DEATH a few months ago. We did NOT
just meekly accept the closed-captioned transcription -- no, no, we must
have had OVER A HUNDRED POSTS about what exactly the kid said. I have a
lonely soul, I have a friend under the earth, I have a warm potato, etc.,
etc., (and my favorite, "My hovercraft is full of eels"), lots of discussion
about French grammar, native French speakers called in to give their
opinions, etc., and we CONCLUDED that he said "j'ai une ame solitaire", and
THEN, somebody with closed-captioning put the nail in the coffin by confirming
that, and NOW, Harold and Cooper and Andy all say the same thing.

J'ai une ame solitaire

Literally translated as: I have a solitary soul
More meaningfully translated as: I am a lonely soul or I am lonely.

THE END.

Jespah

In article <1990Dec4.223258.1668@mdivax1.uucp>:

> >In article <16095@bfmny0.BFM.COM> tneff@bfmny0.BFM.COM (Tom Neff) writes:

>> >>If that spoiler about Cooper and Truman saying goodbye is true, and if
>> >>we sensibly assume MacLachlan outlasts Ontkean, then I'm not too
>> >>shocked.  

> >Why would Truman leave Twin Peaks?  

Why would you think either is leaving Twin Peaks?  The TV Guide
spoilers have been awfully literal.  My take on this is that they will
"say goodbye" but that no one will leave (There will be some reason

Were any other comic book fans out there intensely reminded of Swamp Thing
#27 by the end of the 12/1 episode?  For those who haven't read it, this is
a horror comic book that was less than a year into a startling new run that
arguably changed the face of the comic book industry.  As part of an ongoing plot in issue #27, one of the supporting characters gets into a car crash.  As
he lies in the twisted wreckage, slowly bleeding to death, a fly comes and
sits on the steering wheel and talks to him.  It offers to save his life if
he will just "let him in" (to use Leland's term).  He opens his mouth and the
fly walks in.  When he is next seen he (and the car) appear perfectly healthy
and in fine shape.  Of course, he is now inhabited by an incredibly evil
spirit, but no one finds out about that for several more issues :-)  If
people are interested in reading this story, it has been reprinted in a couple
of trade paperbacks by DC comics, both of which are in print.  The first volume has the scene with the car crash, the second volume has the culmination to that ongoing plot.
Alexx

From: dlp@zule.EBay.Sun.COM (Dan Pritchett)

In article <9741@fy.sei.cmu.edu> dd@sei.cmu.edu (Dennis Doubleday) writes:
**...
**COOPER: Harry, is it easier to believe that a man would rape and
**murder his daughter?
**
**In the real world, the unspoken answer to the question is "Yes".  And
**that is the horror of it.

*Actually I believe in the current state of our society the answer
*would be "No". I am disappointed because we don't need another

Wait a minute -- the answer is "yes".  Yes, it is easier to believe 
in child abuse than in inhabiting spirits.  Did you read the question
in some other way?  Are we all talking about the same thing?

Jespah

From: rjohnson@vela.acs.oakland.edu (R o d Johnson)

*In article <MbKwlg600VpIR1RUwH@andrew.cmu.edu> rk3h+@andrew.cmu.edu (Robert J. Knapp) writes:
*>This is the first time I've ever responded to one of Mr. Newell's posts,
*>IMHO the best thing to do is not to flame him, but to sit back, think
*>about what he said, and just LAUGH!
*
*Well, this figures.  People have been bitching at Gary for weeks,
*telling him to quit yapping and say something constructive.  He
*finally does, an article with no sneering, no insults, and (to me at
*least) quite interesting. . . and gets *this* in reply.  If I were
*Gary, I'd just say "why bother?"  (I hope he won't, though.)

I have to agree, that was actually an interesting post.  I was glad to
see some discussion of the flaws & merits of Lynch's directorial style,
and that grand old Style Vs. Substance thing.  Gary, I disagree with
your conclusions, but it was a nice post. 

Jespah

In article <1990Dec4.130330@cs.yale.edu>, long-morrow@cs.yale.edu (H. Morrow Long) writes:
> > Does real life have a 'plot'?  Does 'Art' have to have a 'plot'?

So this seems to be the latest TP's defense that I've been seeing a lot
lately - TP's is art and art has no strict definition - pretty weak
stuff it seems to me - using the "logic" above, it becomes possible
to defend just about anything as being 'great' TV.

> > Aren't you tired of all of the formulaic sitcoms and soap operas on TV?

Don't happen to watch them - so I can't honestly say I am 'tired' of
them.

> > Real Art should upset you (not numb you like 99.99% of television today).

SO you have the definition of "real art" in your pocket? Funny - I've
never heard that being troublesome (and arguably weak in spots) is
a requisite of art...

> > Relax.  And keep an open mind.

Seems to me that it is you who does not have an open mind when it comes to
TP's - instead it seems that you would rather refuse to accept any criticism
of the show or God forbid criticize it yourself - I wouldn't call that
an open mind.


 As I said in the original post - the criticism I posted was not meant to
imply that the show had no merit - simply that there are people who find
what they feel are legitimate fault with TP's.

jespah@milton.u.washington.edu (Kathleen Hunt) writes:

> >From: alternat@watserv1.waterloo.edu (Ann Hodgins)

> >*There is a shot of Bob under the sprinklers shouting with arms outstretched.
> >*Then the head banging starts. I think it is Bob killing his host.

> >By the way, BOB was shouting the "darkness of future past" speech.  Anyone
> >else get the impression that this isn't just a bit of poetry, but is a
> >potent chant that BOB *had* to say in order to leave the host?  Granted,
> >it doesn't *always* make a spirit leave the host (MIKE can say it without
> >leaving the OAM), but it's definitely got some magical significance.

And did it sound like 'FUTURES past' this time to anyone else?

> >Jespah
-- spcoltri@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (129.15.22.2) "We're not a hundred percent sure. The interpreter went with them."

Now, I am ignorant about most things [get that out of the way 
before I am flamed worldwide], but I find it interesting
that Leland is having a WAKE. Now, I know it is part of different
cultures funeral customs, but weren't Wakes also to make a great
deal of commotion, to Wake the person up if in fact he/she wasn't
dead. Now this could be interesting if old Leland does wake up.
But, if so it would wreck the pathos of his confession, and
repentance and death....Still just a thought...



Sally A. Wilson             || But you never know what can happen...
    || at the last minute...I mean I may
sally@berkeley.mica.edu     || actually think of something here;
         || and if I do you just watch out!

In article <16095@bfmny0.BFM.COM> tneff@bfmny0.BFM.COM (Tom Neff) writes:
> >
> >Given the big lapful of loose ends he was charged with tying up, I
> >thought Tim Hunter did a creditable job of drawing us emotionally into
> >the picture.
Yes.  The ending (all the good guys standing around) was so stupid
I thought it was an intentional nose-thumbing at those who demanded a
clear-cut answer to the WKLP question.  A writing/directing staff such as
Twin Peaks' would have to work hard to sink so low (IMHO).  Albert's non-
sequitor!   Major Briggs' assinine line ("does it really matter?") was such
a useless cliche that its like is seldom heard even in the denoument of
'B' films anymore.  Its obvious purpose, of course, was to set up Cooper's
answer that 'Yes, Virginia, it does matter.'
> >               *  *  *
> >But let's give Ray Wise a standing O for his work these two seasons!  He
> >had a tough job and turned in one of the more memorable sustained
> >performances in years.  I agree with the person who wished him an Emmy
> >nomination, somewhat to my own surprise.  Doubt he'll get it though;
> >it's tough when you leave early in the season.
Yes!  But will he leave?  I'm hoping that we'll still see him in flashbacks.
While there are several new plot threads, I'm sure we'd all like to see
just what happened "that night."
How about this theory for going out on a limb?  (Actually I'm trying to
justify Ray Wise's continuance in the show):
Where does the physical appearance of BOB originate?  Was he really a
living person 40 years ago when he met little Leland?  Just suppose that
BOB's IMAGE is actually that of his previous host...  So prior to 1950
BOB inhabited a fellow who looked just like the image of BOB that we know
and uh, that we know.  (I haven't figured out when he may have picked up
that jean-jacket he wears, tho).  So now, when BOB gets a new host (I'm
betting on James Hurley --- this puke has to justify his existence in the
show somehow) and the host looks in the mirror, we'll see ... Uncle Leland!
    *  *  *
> >
> >If BOB moves into Leo, I don't know how he's going to spook his way
> >around a spinal cord injury, but this isn't ST ELSEWHERE is it!  :-) It
> >sounds like a great hideout though: who would suspect a vegetable in a
> >wheelchair?
The coming attractions are not always what they seem.  Remember Waldo?
Perhaps when Shelly tells Bobby "he moved" she's referring to the baby
she's carrying (is it Bobby's or is it Mr. Nooshoos'?)
> >                                   *  *  *
> >If BOB escapes into someone else and starts to kill again, won't someone
> >have to do something stronger than arresting his latest human host?  Seems
> >like some serious exorcism is called for.  We could get more mystical
> >than any of us dreamed!
Is BOB going to Shuffle off to Buffalo?  Or is that where good
hosts go when they die?  BOB sure likes to hang around the international
border, doesn't he?
I'm sure all will become clear come Saturday night :-)
--Jim

Hello all ...

First of all, let me point out that I'm not reading this
newsgroup ... I read it for a while when I first found it,
but realised that there was a pretty good chance of someone
spoiling the plot for me, as we're only in the first series
over here in Britain ...

So, replies by email, if you would ...

Where was Twin Peaks filmed ? I would really *love* to go there
one day ... and is there really a mill there ? In a few years
time I will probably be going to the States for a few months
(now that's plannig ahead!) and I'd hate to go past the place
and not know it ...

Thanks ...in advance !

A la prochaine ...
        _____               ____  _               _   _  
       (__ __) o  ______   (  __)( )_  ___  ___ _( )_( )_  ___   ______
      (____)  (_)(_)()(_)  (____)(_)_)(__=)(__=) (_)_(_)_)(___)_(_)()(_)
Jim Cheetham, jim@oasis.icl.stc.co.uk, BRA01 0344 424842 x3121 (ITD 763 3121)

In article <S&?^{J%@rpi.edu>, mok@pawl.rpi.edu (... Mok) writes...

} Ummm... This sounds more like a joke than anything else.

Then a lot of people are in on the joke. A lot of this description is
matched by what's in TV GUIDE.

} I don't know this Dougie Milford (yet) or the mayor,

The Mayor appeared in the series pilot, at the town meeting that Cooper
addressed. He hasn't been seen since. Dougie is obviously a new character.

} jacoby and ed persuade the principal to allow Nadine to finish hight
} school!?!? (I guess it had to ahppen...),

As part of her therapy I wouldn't find this completely unbelievable.

} Catherine already vistited the sheriff's station.

But maybe this time it'll be as herself, not as Tojamura.

-- "I can't die yet. I haven't seen THE JOLSON STORY." --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, "The Mill", Maynard, MA) UUCP: ...!decwrl!ruby.enet.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%ruby.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

I'm not sure if any one else has thought of this (my news feed is flaky) but
may be the new 'wimpy Albert isn't Albert at all, but Windom Earle (however its 
spelled).  After all, we have no idea what this person looks like.  I have 
only two supports for this:

  1) This was not the Albert we all know and love.

  2) Coopers boss (Lynches character, I can't remember the name) said that
     Albert _would_not_be_back_ and, by the way, Windom Earle is on the loose.

It might be just a coincedence (sp?), or fore shadowing.

Of course Earle could be anyone, even a woman (with a name that strange, who
knows), I don't think the sex of the ex-agent has been specified (someone
with tapes could check all references to Earle).  Maybe its Vivian!!!

Just some odd thoughts at 2 in the morning

John

Hi,

Would some kind person be willing to mail me a vhs tape of
the 12/1 episode?

I was out of the country for the past 2 weeks and my vcr
failed to tape it.  I understand the previous saturday
there was no show.

I will of course return the tape and reimburse shipping.

Please email first,
Thanks a lot,

Stanton Loh (u2zj@vax5.cit.cornell.edu)
520 The Parkway
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 277-8000

In article <14740024@hpfcso.HP.COM>, daq@hpfcso.HP.COM (Doug Quarnstrom) writes...

> >I think that Lynch is still learning his trade and I hope that
> >he matures so that his work can achieve his potential.  

Achieve his potential?  I don't know, if I were a moviemaker and "Eraserhead" 
(or "Blue Velvet" for that matter) was my only film, I'd be able to die happily.

Granted, Lynch could improve or diversify (couldn't we all?), and I do feel 
that Lynch is guilty of some of the criticisms Mr. Newell has proposed.  
However, I feel that he is much less guilty of these problems than are most
filmmakers.  

I also find these criticisms of the "plotlessness" of David Lynch to be 
interesting.  To me, Twin Peaks has one of the most involved and convoluted
plots of any TV show around.  To most people, THIS has been the ultimate
reason people have left the show.  Thus, I think Lynch/Frost's strange
"indulgences" (if you insist) are quite forgivable.  

If you want plot, TP gives it to you.  If you want tone, TP also gives it to 
you.  If you want image, style OR substance, you got it.  Granted, there's not
an equal balance of all these ingredients, but so what?  If your lasagna had
precisely equal parts sauce, cheese, pasta, and meat, it wouldn't be very
tasty, would it?  (Strange analogy, I know, but think about it)


******************************************************************************
Mike Cluff*   One who knows does not post;
v22964qs@ubvms or mike%luick@ubvms*       One who posts does not know.
UB Language Perception Laboratory*         (apologies to Lao Tzu)
******************************************************************************

Someone (sorry for lack of memory) that when Cooper was guiding Leland
into death, Leland's hair was back to normal.  I thought back and this 
seems correct (and right).  Do any of you rich people with VCR's :-)
concur with this?  I would guess then that his hair turned back when
BOB left him.  When and why his hair turned white was probably already
discussed (before I found out about the group).  What is the general
consensus (ha! in _this_ newsgroup?) now of the changing hair?

charles d. kincaid
statman@stat.ufl.edu

Like, BOB, he's so cool, like, if you put his hair in a tail and, like,
he smiled, you know, and maybe was a little younger and cuter then I 
could, like, go for him, you know?

Don't worry.  I shot her. :-)

> >6.  New theory on Dick:  How could he get Lucy pregnant if he's gay :-)

Gay men produce semen just the same as heterosexual men, as far as I know.
I think Lucy probably knows whether or not she had sex with Dick...

Allan

In article <13700058@hpscdc.scd.hp.com>, bobk@hpscdc.scd.hp.com (Bob Kelley)
writes:
# I know of two films she was in :
# 
# Two Moon Junction (1987)
# Meridian (1990)


Is the latter from the Alice Walker book of the same name?

-- ===================================== "...unimaginative, timid, Hazel Sydeserff lacking in initiative, Centre for Speech Technology Research spineless, easily dominated, University of Edinburgh no sense of humour, tedious 80, South Bridge company and irrepressibly drab EDINBURGH and awful. And whereas in most EH1 1HN professions these would be considerable drawbacks, in speech technology they are a positive boon." MPFC

Idea for scriptwriter to compliment David Lynch's direction: Grant Morrison.

For those of you who do not read comics, Grant Morrison is arguably the
David Lynch of the comics world.  Credits include Animal Man (can't remember
when he started, but he finished recently), Arkham Asylum (graphic novel),
Legends of the Dark Knight: Gothic (#6-10), and Doom Patrol (current).  I
think that these two would be perfect for each other...

Argue if you will...

-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sanjiv Sarwate EMAIL: sarwate@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu "But what is truth? Is truth unchanging law? We both have truths. Are mine the same as yours?" - Pontius Pilate to Jesus Christ, from Jesus Christ Superstar

where are they?

-- Renato

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this (we just started playing with this
discussion group)....but two observations:

1. has anyone noticed that no one on TP (except the LL??) has any PETS???
   I find this peculiarly nonrural.

2. Cooper was humming "When I Take You Out To Missouri" at the same time Leland
was singing it while driving all over the road with his golf bag....


3. Oops...make it three observations...how could Sarah Palmer be psychic and
live in the same house with BOB for so many years???

4. OK, four....Do you think Sarah had ever witnessed, in real time or in her
psychic visions, Leland/BOB sexually abusing LP, i.e. her vision of BOB beside
the brass bed that we see periodically....Sarah may have known for years that
BOB was in the house and both/either were doing it with her daughter...

Just wondering.

Stephanie & Ilana, posting via Priscilla.

/ hpopd:alt.tv.twin-peaks / shaula@snare.mitre.org (Shaula Doyle) /  3:42 pm  Dec  4, 1990 /

 Dick is 99% likely to be the father of Lucy's baby.  Andy was infertile when he was slept with Lucy,
and it wasn't until after he went to the doctor that he started wearing boxers and get his 'sperms'
back.  However, there is a slight possibility, because 'whitey-tighties' cause a low sperm count, not a
non-existant one.
Plot lines that seem to have been left:  what is the deal with Nadine?
---Didn't we see that Hank is coopers secret partner, and
wasn't he killed/kidnapped/wounded by the dude from hong kong?
---why were (nadine's hubby -i forget his name) and the major at 
at the roadhouse as potential laura killers when cooper figured it out?

I don't understand bobby at all.  The weirdest thing to me was when he cried when his dad told him about
the dream.  If he's such a punk kid, I would think he would have just looked at his dad like dad was
nuts.  I get the feeling that shelly is starting to feel bad about leo and disgusted with bobby.  She
seems to be really trying to be nice to leo, though.  
- just my 2 cents in a $20 pot   - shaula                    standard disclamers apply
----------

I apologize for effectively re-posting the base note. I was going to reformat
the entry, but vi got the better of me.

Richard.

"I can't die yet, I haven't mastered vi"

/ hpopd:alt.tv.twin-peaks / marsup@ac.dal.ca / 11:29 am  Dec  4, 1990 /

> > I consider TP to be a real work of art, as far as TV goes, so I was trying to
> > compare the show to a know painter.

> > The name that immediately came to my mind is Salvador Dali. 

> > Mario Ouellet

----------

So do you predict that David Lynch will end his days as an "Executive Producer"
of various mildly eccentric TV shows?

Richard.

I read in a Laser Disc catalog recently that they are supposed to
be releasing TP on LD soon... they were raving about some of the
music and surround sound quality of it, claiming there are
some inside jokes even in the directions some of the sounds come
from.

The "networks" (i.e. ABC) don't usually do this since they don't
technically own the show.  The production company or whoever paid
to make the show does that.  Much the same way Paramount is who
markets the laser discs and video tapes of the old Star Trek
(speaking of which, I hear the new one is about to come out on 
tape and disc as well!).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
King Ables                    Micro Electronics and Computer Technology Corp.
ables@mcc.com                 3500 W. Balcones Center Drive
+1 512 338 3749               Austin, TX  78759
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
We don't inherit the Earth from our parents, we borrow it from our children.

In article <90337.090052ADMN8647@Ryerson.CA> ADMN8647@Ryerson.CA (Linda Birmingham) writes:
> >This has nothing to do with the recent episode but I'd like to asked
> >whether it is common for networks to sell video tapes of shows like
> >Twin Peaks?  Has any one out there heard that they will be marketed.

Lots of TV material makes it to videotapes, usually vintage TV (such as
The Avengers, I Love Lucy, The Prisoner, Dark Shadows) or miniseries
(such as Roots, Brideshead Revisited, or The Winds of War). I have not
heard of Twin Peaks coming out on tape, and I think a video distributor
might have a tough time getting the rights until the show's run is over.
SURELY a distributor realizes there would be a cult following (and ergo
cash in his/her pocket) and get the rights. I did hear that a  TP videotape
was being marketed in Europe.

Jeff Abbott
abbott@mobius.mcc.aca.com

I think the final scene depicts the spirit of Bob after leaving Leland. 
It travels through the forest, then enters the light (maybe the same
light as Leland, maybe another) and is reborn as an owl.  The image of
the owl seemed threatening, suggesting that it is Bob, not some good
spirit.

This illustrates how difficult it is for Bob to change hosts -- he can
do so only on the death of his host -- and also the association of the
spirits around Twin Peaks with owls.  I think that Bob is only one among
several of the owl spirits.  When he was inhabiting Leland, he was never
an owl; he can only become an owl by entering the light.

It is probably pretty hard for him to find a new human host, too. 
Certainly it involves an explicit invitation from the new host, and
probably some ritual.  I think that we won't see Bob taking over anyone
soon; an immediate resumption of the murders would be pretty boring. 
Likely, Twin Peaks will get cancelled before Bob shows up again.  But we
might see the effects of other owl/spirits around Twin Peaks before long.

Leo starting to move again is threatening enough without Bob.  Plus, his
recovery has been predicted several times already.

-- J

I know this is being discussed into the ground, but I didn't
want to attempt reading all 2000+ messages, since I've just
found this group.  

I too have been reading LP's diary and was becoming more and
more convinced that BOB was simply a creation in Laura's mind
of her father as he attacked her.  But the evil spirit thing
seems to make sense too, as it is passed on from person to person.
We never do learn how Leland got it, except that it was a long
time ago up at his family house on the lake.  Maybe the Leland's
father moved to TP to get away from the evil that had been 
happening in the family for years....

Also, what do people think BOB meant when he said, "Like that 
time in Pittsburg." to Coop?  He seemed to be referring to this
unnamed event which his boss seemed to think was very similar
to the situation in TP.  What exactly was that event anyway?

This posting is a symbol of my individuality and my belief in personal freedom.

Jack Vinsonvinson@linc.cis.upenn.edu

Forgive me if these have already been extensively covered or stated...

1.  I think W. Earle has hosted and is hosting BOB, otherwise how would
Leland have known anything about what happened to Cooper in Pittsburgh?
BOB must have transferred this info inside Leland's brain.

2.  Why have the writers done nothing recently about Ronette and Jean Renault?
I think it could have provided a great scene if Ben, Gerard/MIKE and Leland
would have been paraded in front Ronette.  And the writers have done nothing
recently to explore Jean's attempt to get at Cooper and where Jean has been
since the night Audrey was taken from OEJ.

3.  Although this story line is really going nowhere and so far seems
inconsequential compared to other story lines that can be explored, do you
agree that Norma's mom is MT Wentz, the food critic?

4.  I don't think that BOB will inhabit Ben or Leo because those two creeps
are already bad people.  Doesn't BOB like to corrupt/destroy those who were
originally good people?

5.  I agree with a previous poster that the James-Donna lovers' quarrel scenes
are chock full of bad acting and writing.  Good riddance to James, I hope he's
written out of TP.

6.  Don't you think it's inevitable that there will be a confrontation
between Harry and Jonathon over Josie?  I hope so, anyway.



STEVE.

In article <3063@gmuvax2.gmu.edu> jhanks@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (John Hanks) writes:
> >Of course Earle could be anyone, even a woman (with a name that strange, who
> >knows), I don't think the sex of the ex-agent has been specified (someone
> >with tapes could check all references to Earle).  Maybe its Vivian!!!

Wouldn't it be great if Vivian turned out to be the food critic, Earle,
and the new BOB all rolled into one?  She could become rather interesting.

-- Scott Amspoker | Basis International, Albuquerque, NM | "I'm going out for a sandwich" (505) 345-5232 | - Ben unmvax.cs.unm.edu!bbx!bbxsda!scott |

In article <16095@bfmny0.BFM.COM> tneff@bfmny0.BFM.COM (Tom Neff) writes:
> > 
> >If that spoiler about Cooper and Truman saying goodbye is true, and if
> >we sensibly assume MacLachlan outlasts Ontkean, then I'm not too
> >shocked.  Truman's importance in TWIN PEAKS has seldom been much more
> >than symbolic from the word go; lately he has dwindled to near
> >invisibility.  Guess they've been writing him out gracefully.  It's kind
> >of a shame; I'll miss his face.  He was wasted as a foil for Cooper's
> >stoic Aquarianisms; I hope he gets lots of good work now.


Why take this at face value. Every TV-Guide-type listing I've seen for TP
was at least a little misleading. For example, the one for 12/1 said something
like "Andy's French amazes Donna." We all know how that turned out. I don't
think it was Andy's expertise with the French language that amazed Donna. :-)
It also said something about Cooper requesting 24 hours to solve WKLP. While
that wasn't in any way untrue, it gave the impression that he wouldn't solve
it until the 12/8 epsiode.

So these TV listings seem to me to be "pink herrings" in that they don't
necessarily mean what they say. How about this idea: Cooper and Truman
say goodbye but then something happens to prevent the one that was going
to leave from actually going. Maybe? (I also offer as evidence the 
previously-posted interview with Frost (I think) where he said something
like "Cooper's going to try to leave Twin Peaks, but FBI internal
investigations concerning his two trips to OEJ keep him there."


On another subject, my recollection of the BOB leaves Leland event was
that BOB was still there when the sprinklers went on. At least it seemed
to me that Leland was still acting like BOB (snarling and screaming), and
remember it was just before the sprinklers came on that Cooper, et al, out
in the corridor heard Leland/BOB reciting (make that shouting) the "Fire 
walk with me" poem from inside the cell. And when the sprinklers came on,
Leland looked up at them snarled, grinned evilly, howled a little and then
"headed" for the door. :-) At least, that's how my frequently-faulty memory
recalls it. Anyone agree?

Tim

The giant said he would give the ring back after his three statements
were shown to be true.  What is there in this episode that satisfied
this condition?  I don't see how Cooper has any notion of why the owls
are not what they seem.  The TV viewer sees a lot of owls stuff, but
if Cooper was watching the show he would have accused Leland earlier.
(;-)

Actually, we don't know what the owls are either, altho we can be
pretty certain that they are more than just nocturnal predatory
avians.  If they are just a temporary host for spirits, a sort of
Motel 6 of the astral plane, WHO CARES?  What could that have to do
with plot, or character actions, or viewer interest, or even mood?
Maybe the owl explanation is on the cutting room floor with the
Navy ball bouncing squad?



--
B<   Brian Kahn   blk@security.mitre.org   "may the farce be with you"

It disturbed me that they glossed over the resolution of Maddy's murder
so quickly.  Mostly, the obvious resemblance was barely mentioned.

Now, I seem to remember a discussion once of themes involving twins
and look-alikes, and one of the variations was where the twins were
identical but nobody seemed to recognize the resemblance.

can anyone think of such a movie, book, TV show, where this plot
device is used?



For me, everything is wrapped up, some things were wrapped up a little
too easily or just sort of dropped.  They will really have to come up
with some excellent new material for me to keep up my interest.

Lucy/Dick/Andy, Nadine/Big-Ed, Norma/Hank, Catherine/Ben/Asians,
just aren't interesting enough to me the way they have been presented
so far.  I might as well be watching {the show that Gary Ewing is in}. 

Maybe if they picked up the pace a little bit.  The pace this season
has been about as quick as Senor Droolcup.  If I see another out-of-focus
shot of pine trees I'm gonna scream.
--
John Carey
University of Illinois
Dept. of Computer Science
carey@a.cs.uiuc.edu {uu-net,pur-ee,convex,...}!uiucdcs!carey