Season 2, Episodes 21–22: Miss Twin Peaks / Beyond Life and Death — June 10, 1991–August 27, 1992

[Obviously, mundo spoilers in here for those who haven't seen the last
episode yet.]

In article <1991Jun11.041133.7411@ariel.unm.edu> blowfish@triton.unm.edu (rON.) writes:

   7) Some things were obvious that they were shot >after< the cancellation
      papers went out- the bank blowing up with pete and audrey (it wouldn't have
      done that, well, maybe not, if it was continuing), and bens death.....

Well, maybe and maybe not.  A friend pointed out to me that much of
the last episode sort of answered or reprised elements from last
season's finale:

Last season, Nadine tried to commit suicide, leaving us with the
question of whether she would live or die and with the possibility of
Ed and Norma having a non-clandestine relationship.  This season,
Nadine, the old Nadine, finally returns, seemingly torpedoing Ed and
Norma's plans to marry (not to mention Mike).

Last season, Pete rushed into a burning building to save one Packard
(Catherine) and we were left uncertain as to their fate; this year
Pete accompanied another Packard (Andrew) to what seems like certain
death.

Last season, Audrey was in danger of discovery by her father, this
season she is in danger of death.  (Given the L shape of the vault,
it's just possible that she was shielded from the full force of the
blast.  Maybe.)

Last year Leo was shot by Hank---an even bigger bully than Leo---and
his fate was uncertain; this season Leo was booby-trapped by Windom
Earle---perhaps the biggest bully on the earthly plane in TP, and
certainly in the same kind of domineering relation to Leo that Hank
was---and is left hanging on by his teeth, literally.

And, finally, last season ended with the climactic scene of Cooper
getting shot, with the fade to black, and the body thump, leaving us
wondering for his physical well-being; this season ends with the still
more disturbing image of Coop confronting his Bob-self in the mirror,
leaving us in deep worry about his psychic/spiritual well-being.

[There's also the tantalizing scene of Major Briggs in the diner,
receiving the message that Cooper is in the Black Lodge, which is a
throw-away in a true finale, but a hint that the Major may play a role
in Cooper's rescue (redemption?) in a continuing series.]

It's one hell of a season finale; if only it could have had the
patented TP ``...To Be Continued''.

-30-
Bob

P.S. As soon as Coop said that he had to brush his teeth, my heart
sank with the realization that they were going to do The Mirror
Scene.

Maybe I am reading some of this in, but the finale seemed to be using
a whole bunch of imagery borrowed from Arthurian legends and even
Adonis myths.  The presence of the 12 rainbow trout, the 12 sycamores,
the name of the grove (supposedly the burial place of King Arthur),
and the wound in Cooper's side are all elements of what someone has
termed "fisher-king" archetypes as found in grail stories, the Golden
Bough, etc.  Supposedly what happens is that the knight, in this case
Cooper, finds entrance into some separate place representing the
psyche (?) and is there presented with 3 questions.  He doesn't have
to even answer them in most cases, just be a righteous guy, and he
gets the grail which he then applies to the king's wound restoring the
king and the land.  Since Cooper becomes wounded I would guess that he
is the "arthur" figure and that he is either going to have to
restore himself (from inside the Black Lodge ?) or someone is going to
have to do it for him.  If Lynch holds true to arthurian legends it would
be a child without a father, or maybe even a child Annie might have(?).

It's been a while since I studied this stuff, but the imagery was
obviously there.  Re-read Catch-22 for another use of the Fisher-king
archetype in a modern setting. 

Will
--
***************************************************************************
*   _______________\|/_      Will Sadler     will@cica.indiana.edu        * 
*   Laser 44888    /|\                       sadler@iubacs.bitnet         *     
***************************************************************************

Someone mentioned that to me this morning (i.e. that the two rooms
was white and black lodge).

Has anyone sorted out what was in each place (there are 3 rooms right?
Waiting room, and two others?)  Perhaps if we break down what was
seen in each room, it will begin to make sense...  Because I seem
to remember one room having almost nothing (either empty furniture
or completely empty) where as the other room was where bob, WE,
the dopples, etc. were all at.
--
Larry W. Virden                 UUCP: osu-cis!chemabs!lwv27
Same Mbox: BITNET: lwv27@cas    INET: lwv27%cas.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.Edu
Personal: 674 Falls Place,   Reynoldsburg,OH 43068-1614
America Online: lvirden

I loved it! All of it! Ready for more! 

Those of you who are so upset that Bob possessed Coop, take heart,
it may be only the doppleganger. Coop may still be in the lodge,
because someone sent the message to Briggs through Sara Palmer.
If all else fails, go back and watch "Darth Vader goes to heaven!"
from the end of Star Wars III. Happy ending!

Tarantulas don't usually bite people unless provoked.  Leo may
survive.

Nobody really confirmed dead, although there are some very good
candidates...

This show is not at all as bloody as most network fare, it's just
that we *look* at the characters and the emotions. When the cop
shows have people shooting each other a gazillion times with machine
guns, running each other over with cars, throwing each other from
the tops of 20+ story buildings, etc., etc., it's so easy to watch
and forget. That's just normal automated killing, nice and tidy.
But when we ram a head into a mirror or glass or brick wall, then
examine the regret or evil-glee of the agressor, and not cut away 
quickly to the getaway car, it hurts. You get to *see* the truth 
of it.

Laura Palmer's hand symbol looked like a symbol, similar to the
pose in many Bhuddist paintings. Anyone know what it means?

I spotted that fake log in a second. It couldn't talk its way
out of a woodpile.

The final credits:
I've been on the edge of my seat before, but upside down in
front of my TV? Whew! How many of you were with me?

-------------------------------------------------------
dawn@netcom.COM

In <XH83HPG@cs.swarthmore.edu> pouncy@campus.swarthmore.edu writes:

> >Comments about the last show:


> >3.  Why are they calling the Black Lodge/White Lodge Glastonbury?
> >It's Avalon.  It's where King Authur, the once and future king,

Right-O. See my other post.

> >4.  Why the twelve trees and twelve rainbow trout?  Why
> >are the trees Sycamores?  Lynch's dad worked for the Interior

Or 12 disciples, or 12 grail knights, etc...

> >the Sycamores(?).'   In witchcraft (celtic version) twelve is
> >a magic number.  Twelve witches usually form a coven and
> >at ceremonies they stand in a circle of twelve to host the devil
> >inside.  Twelve trout? Well, wouldn't they be the
> >antidote?

Fish are symbols of all sorts of life redeeming things. They are
related, of course, to Christian symbolism, as well as to things
like life-renewing floods in river valleys. 

> >5.  So, I still don't know what the owls are, if they are not
> >what they seem.

I thought that owls were supposed to portend death, destruction,
and all that jazz.  Supposedly a form that witches take. ??

Will
--
***************************************************************************
*   _______________\|/_      Will Sadler     will@cica.indiana.edu        * 
*   Laser 44888    /|\                       sadler@iubacs.bitnet         *     
***************************************************************************

First let's try the crtl-l stuff

O.K. IMHO, Bob is not IN Coop! Coop is trapped in the black lodge and an
alien doppleganger has taken his place. It makes perfect sense. The owls
are alien dopplegangers also, or at least the ones that aren't really
owls (if you know what I mean). All in all quite a good shew! Well done
David and Mark! Puts the other crap on T.V. to shame. BTW, was Coop
running between the white and black lodges? It must have been the white
lodge he initially entered since the DD was relatively nice. I must
watch it again. For now I gotta go brush my teeth. (Good idea!).
Chuck Machala

In article <9106102307.AA4191@cas.org>, lwv27@CAS.BITNET (Larry W. Virden ext. 2487) writes:
> > Myself, I am flat out ANGRY.
> > 
> > I am angry that we see Dale running around in a STUPID set - that
> > the White Lodge scarcely makes an appearance - and I DONT mean the
> > stupid appearance of the trio  before the Doppleganger sequence.
I take it you are not a fan of Surrealism.

> > I am angry that Coop never mentions or acts upon the Giant'a
> > warning from before the pagent.

Cooper was probably caught up in the moment. Love makes you do strange things,
and blind to others. Perhaps his mind was elsewhere. (Probably on that
gratuitous love scene first half of the finale)

> > I am angry that we see the Dr so out of character in attacking Ben
> > and then, a while later, standing over Coop.

Ben Horne just told a secret that could possibly destroy Hayword's family.
What is your idea of his "proper" response? I'd like to know. After Donna
confronting him those couple times, I'm sure he was building up a lot of anger,
and after seeing Horne in his house, he exploded. Just because he is normally
a calm guy, he can't get mad?

As for your other objection, I don't remember that, so I can't comment on it.

> > I am angry that Mike did not show up in the sequence.
> > 
> > I felt good about the show up until the Red Room sequence.  From that point
> > on I felt cheated - as if all ideas had ran out and so resorting to
> > stream of conciousness (or unconciousness as the case may be) was
> > the final solution.

Hmmm. I guess we are opposite. I was pretty dissappointed with most of the
show, UP UNTIL the Black Lodge. I'm sure I'll iterate on that is the near
future.

> > Larry W. Virden                 UUCP: osu-cis!chemabs!lwv27
> > Same Mbox: BITNET: lwv27@cas    INET: lwv27%cas.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.Edu
> > Personal: 674 Falls Place,   Reynoldsburg,OH 43068-1614
> > America Online: lvirden

                                         John


-- __ , |John M. Meyers _/ meyers@wybbs.UUCP (_/_ / /)) _ _ _ _ | \ sharkey!wybbs.mi.org!meyers _/(//)/) / / (-'(/(-'/ ' '-,| "I only laughed away your tears, (/""""""""""""""(_/"""""""""" | but even jesters cry!" - Fish

In article <5529@autodesk.COM>, robertj@unreal.uucp (Young Rob Jellinghaus) writes:

> > The Giant and the Dwarf--one and the same--

I didn't read it this way; I thought the Giant meant that he and Senor
Droolcup were one and the same. What was SDTWMDRSW doing there in the
waiting room anyway? Is he daid? I think I remember the Giant uttering
something like "one and the same" in of his earlier visitations to 
Coop... ring any bells?

> > "Wow, BOB, wow!"

Since no one has pointed out the obvious, I will: this is a palindrome 
that is also vocally palindromic, when spoken in the Lynchian double-
reverse technique. Only other one I can think of is "Madam, I'm Adam."

On another line: don't know about you, but I had nightmares. Woke up at
2:30 in the morning incredulous that Lynch could do this to us. Black,
black, black. Not amused.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keith Dawson   <dawson@Atex.Kodak.COM>    voice=508-670-4025    fax=508-670-4033
Atex Advanced Publishing Sys., 165 Lexington Rd. (400/165L), Billerica, MA 01821
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excerpts From netnews.alt.tv.twin-peaks: 11-Jun-91 TP 6/10 **SPOILERS
FOREVER** Jason Snell@sdcc13.ucsd. (2036) 
> >* Doppelgangers. Coop's dark side escapes. As did Leland's (that's why the
> >other Leland is in the lodge, and "didn't kill anyone")... Laura's light side
> >escaped, leaving her dark side in the lodge. Sound somewhat right?

We've known for some time that in order to reach the White Lodge, one must
first travel through the Black Lodge, and in the process meet and overcome
one's doppelganger. Coop is about 75% of the way there. Now, all he has to
do is overcome his evil side, and he'll be in. I personally was kind of
disappointed by Coop's actions in the Black Lodge. In order to defeat the
evil, he needed to have overcome his fear and fought back with love, not just
for Annie, but for life, the world, his friends, and his enemies. Remember,
"Fear is the mindkiller." Instead, all Coop does is run back and forth between
the two rooms. And he didn't overcome his fear. Of course, I would be afraid
too if I had a doppelganger of Laura Palmer screeching at you. Yow! I don't
think that the evil Laura or Leland or LMFAP were real. Remember, LMFAP
said, "When you see me again, it will not be me." There seemed to be four
entities in the Black Lodge with Coop. They are: Windom, Annie, BOB, and
Coop's doppelganger. My theory is that the evil LMFAP was actually BOB (he
walked and sounded similarly), Carolyne was probably Windom, evil Laura was
probably Windom (using frame advance on a vcr, one can see Windom's face
in between flashes of the strobe light when the evil Laura is coming at Coop),
and Leland was probably BOB too. Illusion *is* one of evil's major weapons.

> >* Repeated dialogue. The entire scene in the RR Diner, with the german
> >  girl we haven't seen since the pilot movie, repeating the same damned
> >  thing ("couldn't jumpstart the old man?" etc...) Weird. And we see
> >  Mrs. Horne again, too...

Right after the penultimate episode, I posted a list of things that I would
like to see and not like to see. Most of them did come true. I was hoping to
see Sarah Palmer, Laura, Maddy, the Giant, and LMFAP. My biggest disappointment
in the show was that there was no Albert. Of course, there wasn't any logical
reason for him to be in the episode, I was hoping he'd show up anyway, perhaps
he'd feel compelled to be there from a dream or something. Thankfully,
preliminary reports pertaining to _Twin Peaks: The Motion Picture_ indicate
that Albert will be back. I thought it was a nice touch bringing back Ronette
Pulaski, too.

> >* Ben Horne. Dead? Giving his last twitches before his soul leaves his
> >  body? Why the BOB music as Hayward kills him? And then Hayward's at
> >  the hotel?

I don't think Ben can possibly be dead. If he was, Hayward would be in jail
not taking care of Coop at his bedside. I didn't realize there was any BOB
music, but I'll take your word for it. Perhaps part of the reason why people
feel it was out of character for the good doctor is that he was possessed by
BOB when he did it, or maybe it was some kind of psychic backlash of bad vibes
coming from the showdown in the Black Lodge. My prediction is that since Ben
has tried to be good and it just didn't work out, he'll go back to being bad.
I hope I'm wrong. I like Ben as a good guy.

> >* Briggs is the guy. He's the one who is told by the Log Lady that "Coop
> >  Is With Me at the Black Lodge"... he's got to be the one to save him.

That wasn't the Log Lady that was Sarah Palmer. The big question is who was
she possessed with. BOB? LMFAP? There seemed to be a tone of maliciousness
in the voice, but that could just be me. Briggs is the coolest. I really wish
he had been more involved. He definitely has to be in the movie. After all,
they are "waiting for him" in the Black Lodge.

> >* I'm hoping that Audrey, Andrew, and Pete ARE dead. 
> >  Just because it wouldn't be a rip-off that way.

Well, Andrew has to be dead. How could he not be? Pete was standing behind
Andrew so there is a chance that he could be alive. Audrey was on the other
side of the rather large (surrounded by steel) vault. I'd bet that she is
still alive.

> >* Whoever got that final scene right with BOB in the mirror, well done.

The impact of the scene was ruined for me BECAUSE I had read the early
prediction of the ending. Damn it, I wish I had skipped that message...
I still liked the ending though.

> >The gum we like will one day come back in style. Until that day...

+-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+
| Edward J. Sabol               | Arpa:   es2j+@andrew.cmu.edu          |
| Carnegie Mellon University    | Bitnet: es2j@ANDREW.BITNET            |
+-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+
| "The streets that Balboa walked were his own private ocean and Balboa |
| was drowning." - August Wilson                                        |
+-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+

In article <mr.676663318@ogre> mr@ogre.cica.indiana.edu (Michael Regoli) writes:
> >In <7051@vela.acs.oakland.edu> rjohnson@vela.acs.oakland.edu (R o d
> >Johnson) writes: 

>> >>But we saw Dell's glasses fly across the street and into a bush, and

> >HARDLY a bush, man!  That was a Pseudotsuga taxifolia!  (More fondly
> >known as a Douglas Fir!)

Get a *life*.

-- Rod Johnson * rjohnson@vela.acs.oakland.edu * (313) 650 2315 "All wax is wedding wax" --Gertrude Stein

In article <20438@sdcc6.ucsd.edu> orovner@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Oleg Rovner) writes:



> >1: We DID not see any bodies, except Ben's and he was moving.

But we saw Dell's glasses fly across the street and into a bush, and
he was *outside* the vault.  

> >2. The Major is on his way to the lodge

Mmmmmaybe.

> >3. Everybody at the Double R was pretty much in love, so, is
> >"love enough"?

*This* was a great scene.  Anyone notice this (I know you did): the
dialogue between Bobby, Shelley and Heidi was almost exactly the same
as in episode 1000.

> >4. Dale seems to be in heap big trouble...
> >5. Is it just me, is the black lodge actually spelled and
> >pronounced "b-l-a-c-k l-o-u-n-g-e"? I thought "Candy-colored
> >clown" scene in "Blue Velvet" was intended to be have much the
> >same effect (sense of impending doom) and came off A LOT
> >better.

Yes, and yes.

> >6. As someone else said, probably the scariest and the most
> >depressing episode of "Peaks" in a while.

I didn't find much of it scary at all.  Probably because it seemed so
telegraphed.  I liked

    the dance numbers;
    Lucy'n'Andy ("men");
    the scene with Dell in the bank;
    the fact that we saw *everybody* (Maddie, Sylvia, Eileen, Heidi,
        Sarah, Laura, Leland, Mr. Pinkle. . .) (OK, not Jerry or
        Johnny Horne, no OAM or Harold Smith or Tremonds);
    no James!
    Ronette finally getting a line;
    the column of fire going into WE's head;
    Leo the lion-hearted;
    "the queen of Romania?"
    "where are my DRAPE RUNNERS!?!"




-- Rod Johnson * rjohnson@vela.acs.oakland.edu * (313) 650 2315 "All wax is wedding wax" --Gertrude Stein

In article <5529@autodesk.COM> robertj@unreal.uucp (Young Rob Jellinghaus) writes:
...
> >You all know Lynch doesn't believe in happy endings.  You all KNOW that.

Oh, really?

Didja ever see "Wild at Heart?"
-- Roger Fulton roger@wrq.com

In article <20450@sdcc6.ucsd.edu> mhorn@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Melanie M. Horn) writes:
...
> >* On a last note, my friends all remarked that Lynch was really
> >  going all out on his last episode when Norma & judges were
> >  talking about the pageant (first 15 mins of show) and a
> >  guy walks in front of them carrying a deer?  Did it look 
> >  peculiarly like something kind of kinky or do my friends
> >  just have very dirty minds?  They all seemed to notice it
> >  right away!

Me too.

It sure looked to me like the guy was humping away at it.

Gave me a good laugh.










.
-- Roger Fulton roger@wrq.com

One little anomaly I noticed in the Black (/white?) Lodge scene last night:
  After Cooper has gone from room to room a couple times, the statue which is
in the hallway dissapears. Any comments?
-- -- John Hawkinson jhawk@panix.com

Many posters are starting to "quote," "Fire, come walk
with me."

***THIS WAS NEVER SAID ON TP.***  WHAT WAS SAID WAS:
"Fire, walk with me."

Let's nip this gross inacurracy in the bud, or we'll
have another situation like Bogie supposedly saying
"Play it again, Sam" in "Casablanca" (he never did).
-- Roger Fulton roger@wrq.com

  The general concensus which I am receiving from the group, is  that
Lynch's depiction of the Black Lodge was disappointing.  I can't
disagree more!  I found the maze of red curtains, disorienting,
distressing, and just plain spooky!

  The atmosphere in the waiting room seemed quite oppressive.  It had
an evil/oily ambience which I though was entirely appropriate.  (I had
the same feeling watching Kubrick's "The Shining")  I had no difficulty
believing that this COULD be a vision of Hell.

  As for Coop's present situation.  The LMFAP did say "doppleganger"
before WE, BOB and the evil Coop appeared.  My feeling is that Dale
is trapped in the Black Lodge, while his doppleganger is free to
roam the material plane.  I think it will be up to the Major (and
Annie?) to rescue him.  (I also think Truman is not up to the task.)

  As for Annie, did she make it out of the BL?  She didn't look to
good laying next to Coop in the clearing.  Perhaps she did die, and
Truman lied to spare Coops feelings upon his recovery?

  In the final analysis?  I liked it.  Lynch did NOT wimp out.  I
would have been a bit miffed by a "happy ending." - IMHO of course!

- Larry
 

--
/  Larry J. Brackney      | E-Mail: brackney@mn.ecn.purdue.edu              \ 
|-------------------------| S-Mail: 3116 Hilltop Dr.  W. Lafayette IN  47906 |
|  Mechanical Engineering | Phone : (317)-463-1602 (Home)                    |
\  Purdue University      |         (317)-494-6552 (Office)                 /

giovin@medr0.ecs.umass.edu (Rocky J Giovinazzo) writes:

> >As for the ending, I was somewhat sickened.  I hated the 
> >Coop-sees-BOB-in-the-mirror-ending when 
> >it was predicted here on the newsgroup and I hate it now.  For Cooper to
> >have been trapped by BOB, it would mean that he still hasn't learned
>from his experience with Caroline, and also that he is weak. 

Weak! Smeak!  Coop wasn't weak he sacrificed himself for Annie's life.
Remember WE asking Coop if he would give him his soul for Annie's life.  Coop
without hesitating agreed.  Only thing it was a trap.  WE couldn't take Coop's
soul, but BOB could.  At that point Coop was trapped.  He may have blundered,
but I refuse to beleive he was weak.

 M
MDM
 M

-- _________________________________________________________________________ ( _______________________________ Brain, and brain! What is brain! ) \________________________________) --Star Trek (Spock's Brain) / El_Rayo_X_______________________________________________________________/

I can't do a control-L, so I'll skip several lines ...





















Sorry to have to do that - but I didn't have much choice. Anyway...

AAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

I can't *believe* that Lynch did that. We went to bed really angry and
feeling cheated. And to think that we passed up an opportunity to play
BINGO with a bunch of elderly people (really). At least I recorded
Northern Exposure while watching TP. To me, this brings new meaning to
the phrase Lynch mob - that's what I'd like to organize. I really took
it as a f*ck you from Lynch - either directed at us or at ABC. I can't
even express how pissed off I am. After all...

Is Audrey dead?

What about Ghostwood?

Is Ben dead?

How is Donna?     

What ever happened to James? (I know, who cares...:-)  )

What about Leo?

Is WE dead?

What about Cooper?

What about the log? Is it her dead husband?

What about Annie?

What happened to Josie-in-a-box?

What will Catherine do?

What about Nadine?

What about Ed and (oh shit, what is her name?)

What about James and Shelley?

I could go on and on and on, but I'm sure you get an idea about how I fell

:-(  :-(  :-(  :-(  :-(

Let's have a Lynch-ing.

Janet
-- ____*_ Janet Christian jchristian@indetech.com \ / / Independence Technologies {sun,sharkey,pacbell}!indetech!jchristian \/ / 42705 Lawrence Place FAX: 415 438-2034 \/ Fremont, CA 94538 Voice: 415 438-2054

   Watching this episode was like watching TWIN PEAKS put a gun to its
head and pull the trigger.

Very nice....
-- Scruffy Ian Sullivan ******************************************************************************* **ian@umbio.med.miami.edu % "God is dead"- Nietsche ** **ian@umiami.ir.miami.edu % "Nietsche is dead"- God ** **ian@umiami.bitnet % "Nietsche is God"- The Dead ** ** % ** **UUU UMUMMM MMMMMM % "Skate to Kill--Kill to Skate" ** **UUU UMU MMM MMM MMM % ** **uUU UMU MMM MMM MMM % "Life's been good to me so far..." -J.W. ** **UUUUUUUUMUof MMMMM MMM % "Give it a while." -Me. ** ******************************************************************************* Damn, Underwater Basket Weaving 302 is filled, well there goes my summer! Yes I know I spelled it wrong...whatever it was. ;)

   I believe that last night's final episode of Twin Peaks is
David Lynch's way of saying, "You!  You watch too much television.
Stop it!  Why don't you just watch movies instead.  Movies are better.
This wouldn't have happened if this had been a movie, now wouldn't it?!"

Ben "Not prepared to watch TV for at least a week" Fan

--
  Benjamin L. Fan '92  |  Big money!      | ST702424@Brownvm (.brown.edu)
   Brown University    |  Big prizes!     | P.O. Box 3183; Brown U.;
  -------------------  |  I love it!      | Providence, RI  02912
  Delta Psi - Kappa'89 |                  | (401) 453-5034

In article <1991Jun11.141138.30900@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu>, howie@ivory.cc.columbia.edu (Howie Kaye) writes:
|> And what ever happened to The One Armed Man?
|> 
|> ------------------------------------------------------------
|> Howie Kaye                              howie@columbia.edu
|> Columbia University                     hlkcu@cuvma.bitnet
|> UNIX Systems Group                      ...!rutgers!columbia!howie

He's selling shoes in Seattle and faithfully taking his medication daily :-).

Benjy

In <7051@vela.acs.oakland.edu> rjohnson@vela.acs.oakland.edu (R o d
Johnson) writes: 
 
> >In article <20438@sdcc6.ucsd.edu> orovner@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Oleg
Rovner) writes: 

>> >>1: We DID not see any bodies, except Ben's and he was moving.

> >But we saw Dell's glasses fly across the street and into a bush, and
> >he was *outside* the vault.  

HARDLY a bush, man!  That was a Pseudotsuga taxifolia!  (More fondly
known as a Douglas Fir!)

--

michael regoli
mr@cica.indiana.edu
regoli@iubacs.BITNET
..rutgers!iuvax!cica!mr

[Yet another person posting thoughts about the final episode. But these are
 good ones. ;-)]

First of all, will someone of authority conferm/deny that the final two episodes
were filmed long the final status of the show was known, so these were actually
just the last two shows of the season, and it was assumed there would be more?
I am acting under the assumption that this were the case.

My gripe list:

Certain scenes seemed as though the show ran short and some filler was needed.
One example is the bank scene. I agree that it was pretty humorous, but I'd
rather not spend 5 minutes watching an old man look confused. The ending was
great, though! Another example was Lana's dance at the pagent. Cute, but it
seemed kind of long to me. (Not enough time to meet Diane this season, but
plenty for an old man walking, girls dancing, etc.) There are others, but I'll
spare you the details.

   Oh, surprise, surprise. Nadine gets her memory back by a blow to the head.
The cure-all for anybody with memory problems, used in every stupid sitcom
ever made. I suppose to could be argued that in using this method, the writers
were simply casting light on the stupidity for other shows using it. DON'T
BELIEVE THAT FOR A SECOND! :-)

Ok, with that out of the way, now for the good stuff.

   First of all, cheers to Angelo Badalementi for the new suspense theme. I like
it! That eeiry tune will be with me the rest of my days.)
(And while I'm at it, my vote goes for his other piece that debuted quite
a while ago. How to classify it... new love theme? I don't know.)

"...she has lived here for about 15 minutes!" - Dwayne Milford
(if you totaled Annie's on-screen appearences, wouldn't this be close?)

   The end of the pagent was incredible. It saved 2021, in my opinion. (I wasn't
too thrilled with the rest of the show.) Perhaps strobelight action/suspence
scenes exist in other places, but I haven't seen one. Even so, this one was
executed beautifully.

   I've seen some negative comments on the "Red Room" sequence. One simple
comment - "Pure Lynch". (That's a compliment, boy.)

   Okay, the ending. If this were a cliffhanger, it would be great ending.
We would be spellbound all summer, waiting to find out what happens. But
assuming Lynch knew that the show was over by this time...

... IT WOULD BE AN EVEN BETTER ENDING! When Coop was in bed and was told 
Annie was Ok, I thought "oh boy, another wishy-washy ending. How predictable."
Of course, just seeing that Coop was near a mirror was enough to give the
secret away, but not the ending. I'm sorry if you don't agree with me, but
doesn't it get boring when everything concludes with a happy ending? Now we
are left to our imagination on a world with an evil Cooper. Mind boggling...


                                              John



 


 

-- __ , |John M. Meyers _/ meyers@wybbs.UUCP (_/_ / /)) _ _ _ _ | \ sharkey!wybbs.mi.org!meyers _/(//)/) / / (-'(/(-'/ ' '-,| "I only laughed away your tears, (/""""""""""""""(_/"""""""""" | but even jesters cry!" - Fish

I thought y'all might be interested in what's happening recently
on the POLITICS list, and I'd certainly love to hear *your* opinions
on this interesting topic.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

From:IN%"POLITICS@OHSTVMA.BITNET"  "Forum for the Discussion of Politics" 11-JUN-1991 10:09:35.73
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 11:07:00 EDT
From: "In a night without day, on a road without end." <WRDJ@CRNLVAX5.BITNET>
Subject: Lynch isn't fair

The rotten bastard.  He's great, but I really want to scream at him.
 
On the down side, it was fairly obvious that Lynch had to cram a half-dozen
episodes of material into two hours minus commercials (I hate commercials).
 
On the upside, I sure didn't expect the show to end that way, so I was
surprised in a big way -- rare on modern TV.  But why, oh why did Audrey
have to engage in her first act of civil disobedience just *then*??
 
Not politics, true, but at least it's a new topic....
 
Actually, a discussion about the social factors involved in the roman-candle-
like popularity of Twin Peaks might be very appropriate on this list, as I
think that kind of information ties in closely with the way people live, view
the world and, consequently, deal with political issues.  Anybody wanna give
it a try?  If not I'll shut up.
 
Bill D.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 13:53:20 -0400
From: fi (Fiona Oceanstar)
To: wrdj@crnlvax5.bitnet
Subject: re: Lynch isn't fair


A little bird sent me your posting to POLITICS.  I'm not sure I want
to join the list just in order to join this conversation--although 
my natural impulsivity has taken me into many such avenues, I admit--
but being an ardent "Twin Peaks" fan, I would like to comment on your
"roman candle" observation.

I think there is indeed a parallel between how people lost interest
in TP, and how they respond within the political arena, and that the
parallel lies in the way we deal with information.

Understanding and appreciating TP demanded several things of the viewer:
--a long attention span, to keep focused on the evolving
threads of the plot over multiple hiatuses of weeks to months in
duration;
--access to a reliable information source about upcoming
changes in the schedule;
--frustration tolerance, and the ability to wait for
gratification;
--a fairly good memory for details.

Some of these same skills are required for other TV shows, and for
reading long books (fantasy trilogies, _War_and_Peace_), and for
watching movie series such as "Star Wars," but TP seemed to raise
the ante a bit--at least as judged by how many people dropped out
of the running.  I think that following political contests, acting
according to political goals, and just plain being a "good citizen,"
are similarly challenging.  You have to pay attention.  You can't
tune in from time to time, and expect to know what's going on.

And then there are the other issues, which pertain more to the content of
the information, rather than the process of keeping up with it:  While
it was not absolutely necessary (nothing is) to enjoying the show, a
number of other emotional/cognitive skills were helpful.  The ability
to make sense of literary and pop-culture allusions.  A healthy capacity
for emotional investment in characters who might die violently before
your very eyes (think of the impact of Robert Kennedy's death--how it
soured many people on caring deeply about political figures).  A sense
of humor that includes the offbeat, the outre', and the disconcerting.
And so on.  Obviously, more layers of enjoyment open up if the viewer
has friends with whom they can share their enthusiasm for the topic,
mailing lists or newsgroups (alt.tv.twin-peaks on USENET) where they
can read and write about the show, and access to news about the stars, the
writers, the directors, and most of all, their fellow TP-heads.  And if
they're willing to rent and view David Lynch's previous films, and catch
"Wild at Heart" during its first run, and check out "Industrial Symphony
#1," and track down Lynch's cartoon series ("The Angriest Dog in the
World").  Not to mention reading Laura Palmer's diary, Coop's autobio-
graphy, the second-season press kit, and the transcript of the European
ending for the "Who Killed Laura Palmer" thread.  And I won't even get
into the T-shirts, coffee cups, and other paraphenalia--all of which
enhance one's enjoyment, if taken in the right spirit.  Heck--just
going to the trouble to bake a cherry pie and brew up a good pot o' joe,
could make a difference in one's pleasure in any one episode.

Enough already.  I wrote an article on the TP phenomenon as experienced
on USENET, if you're interested.  It was in the March issue of the
_Twin_Peaks_Gazette_, a publication that reveals much about the show's fans,
if not so much about the masses who lost interest.

--Fiona Oceanstar
  fi@grebyn.com


P.S.  Feel free to post all or part of this to POLITICS, if it would
help fuel the discussion.  :-)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

How 'bout it, alt.tv.t-p-Heads?  Are we better at politics for being
good at "Twin Peaks"?  What else could we say about the "social factors"
(whatever that means) involved in the "roman-candle-like popularity"
of the show?  I know we've talked a lot about the need for intelligence
in the viewer.  But what else is there?  A common love of donuts?

--Fi

From article <5529@autodesk.COM>, by robertj@unreal.uucp (Young Rob Jellinghaus):
> SPOILERS!!!!
> 

> You all know Lynch doesn't believe in happy endings. You all KNOW that.

Eh? We do?

I always thought happy endings were something you could count on
seeing in Lynch's work (right up there with flames, prom dresses,
and open head injuries) -- although he'll put you through hell
to get there. Sheesh, in _The Elephant Man_, the guy DIES and
it's still a happy ending.

I was quite surprised that TP ended on such a completely down
note. Maybe that's one reason Lynch is so hot to continue the
story with a feature film.


---
ereynolds@encore.com

     OK, a few thoughts scattered randomly about the last episode(s) :

     How conscious is Leo?  If fully, why doesn't he take advantage of the
fact and free himself, either getting the appropriate keys while Windom's
out or by brute strength?  What happened to the madman from the first
season?

     Kinda unexpected that even Leo would turn out to have a good side
("save Shelly...") at the end.  Maybe love IS enough after all.  =)  By the
way, Leo's been at Windom's hideaway for quite some time now -- he should
have longer stubble to show for it.  Unless Windom has been shaving him...

     All throughout the finale, Cooper was so damn passive.  The side of
good really has done nothing throughout without evil being one step ahead
of them all the way.  Coop ignored the giant's warning; even when he realized
that Windom was waiting on the outcome of the Miss Twin Peaks pageant, all
he did after getting there was watch (and clap =) ).  He was a model of in-
action all the way through.  If anything, Andy was the one who made the most
progress -- the map, the revelation of the bonsai bug, etc.  Coop was even
passive inside the Lodge.  I expected at least something from the man who
was on top of everything not so long ago.  The way things were, he was almost
a bit player... it was Windom who made everything happen; Coop was just
following and watching.

     The painting looked quite unmistakeably like a map when I got a glance
at it; there were a series of vertical lines somewhere near the middle which
could only be the waterfall.

     Wasn't it a bit late for Audrey to enter the pageant?  The scenes they
showed were great, though... the choreography just slightly off, the dark-
ness just a touch away throughout... I would have liked to see all of the
contestants' talents, instead of just the first couple -- imagine what Nadine
or Audrey would have done!  ;-)  Also : Why only three judges, all of which
had many personal stakes on the outcome?  Wouldn't they have deadlocked?

     Anybody else think that Lana's face looks kinda like a monkey's?

     I liked the scene where Windom was chastising Leo -- Windom's face just
got more and more devilish.  By the end of it he was looking almost as scary
as Bob.  But why wasn't he more surprised that Leo had done something in-
telligent?  And why didn't he arrange the tarantula trap so that it would
close on Leo much sooner than expected?  (i.e. tie the cord to the door, or
have a candle burning through it, etc)  If Leo's teeth are strong enough, he
could just stay there like that till he gets discovered...

     The Ben/Audrey scene was pretty cliched, though I liked the fire as a
backdrop while Ben was reverently praising the texts he had with him.  I
almost expected at least one of them to end up (accidentally of course) in
the fire.  Or something more creative : Ben could shove a handful of books
at Audrey when she asks for advice, or he could flip through them to come
up with a (completely unrelated, of course) bon mot spontaneously.

     Was Glastonbury Grove the site of Bob's sudden appearance at the end
of the penultimate episode?  The puddle which reflected the red curtains
did look like the 'well' in the center of the circle of trees.  But Bob
certainly seemed to be safe in the Black Lodge again for the final episode
(well, *most* of the final episode... ;-) ).  So why did Bob pop into the
real world and then go back to the Lodge?  Lynch ad-libs again.

     Interesting that the scene in which Coop's hand shook was replayed
prior to the beginning of this episode -- it has more significance than
we know, perhaps?  Was part of Bob already in Coop, working on his dark
side?  Was that Coop's dark side testing its strength, its independence?

     I liked the lights at the pageant going out one by one, as if it were
the most natural thing in the world... but Coop did nothing!  And when the
M.C. tried to protect Annie ("come this way...") I was convinced that *he*
was really Windom Earle.  Well, Windom (as usual) had an easy time of it --
seems like nobody in town really is a match for his scheming.  At any rate,
though, his playing with the flashlight when in the woods with Annie was
simply priceless.

     Entering the Lodges, both for Earle and Coop, was easier than anyone
thought... the 'fear'/'love' thing really didn't seem to enter into it at
all.  I get the feeling that if Donna had been at the grove, the curtains
would have appeared for her too... =)  And wasn't Earle's 'entrancing' of
Annie silly?

     Lynch did a good job of flouting our expectations when he cut to the
bank scene right after Coop entered the Lodge.  And the bank teller was
great.

     Why, and how, did Ben suddenly change when his wife came barging in
to his scene with the Haywards?  Before he sounded troubled, but at least
honest -- genuinely trying to do the right thing but going about it in the
most wrong way.  Afterwards his voice lost all its conviction; he sounded
merely wimpy and afraid, giving Doc Hayward the righteousness with which to
deck him.  But then why the spooky music and the bowtie twitching?  Was Ben
harboring another spirit all along (the OAM's pointing to him in 10/8)?

     Disappointing that the Lodge scenes merely reused Lynch's last attempt
at utter surrealism in 1002.  Went right back to the backwards talk and the
dancing dwarf and the somewhat ordinary waiting room.  And not even any
truly bizarre lines about out-of-style gum or arms bending back.  And Coop
just sat there.

     The Lodge scene also went to lots of trouble to tell us what we really
already knew -- the Giant/SDC being "one and the same" and who murdered
Caroline ("my husband killed me").  But didn't say much of anything in way
of explaining Bob, Mike, the dwarf, etc.  Note that Cooper's wound when the
befanged Laura ran to him was in exactly the same place as the gunshot he
received from Josie.

     Why were *Laura's* eyes glazed over?  (At least one of the Lauras...)
Did Bob wind up possessing her too?  I thought she died so that wouldn't
happen... but, well, there certainly seems to be at least one (relatively)
normal Laura lurking around the Lodge.

     Windom was perfect inside the Lodge -- it was obvious how completely
he underestimated what he'd have to deal with.  An excellent characterization
of the madman gleefully calling up the forces of darkness and not realizing
until far too late that they were controlling him instead of vice versa.

     How did Cooper's 'dark side' come into being?  And after Bob seemed to
allow him to go, too... that part was more whimsical than anything else.  Is
Bob the master of the Black Lodge, or just a character in it?  Why didn't we
get anyone really new inside such a heretofore unforeseen place?

     When Coop and Annie reappeared at daylight, the pattern of blood on
Annie's face looked identical to that on Maddie's in 10/8.

     Cooper howling with Bob was glorious... and, of course, Coop looked much
stronger and active and, well, *human* then than he ever looked in the real
world.  His grin was almost refreshing.  It was good to see him having fun.

     When Hilda came into the Double R, her face looked surprisingly like
Leo's to me... almost as if Leo had found his way into Windom's bag of dis-
guises and wanted to find out what Shelly had been up to.  ;-)

     When Coop said "I have to brush my teeth," I knew what was up... yup,
predictable but damn frightening.  The way Coop reflexively 'attacked' Bob
by butting his head into the mirror seemed to indicate that Coop himself
(the same Coop who asked "How's Annie?" when he woke up, the human part of
Coop that is still there even though Bob is sitting atop his soul) saw Bob
in the mirror and knew who he was and what that meant.  Is Coop now aware
that he is being possessed by Bob?  If he's aware of it, can he fight it?
Seems to me that unless Bob is always dominant in Coop (which would most
likely, well, be noticed around town ;-) ), when Coop's human side is in
control of his body he has a chance to do something.  So WILL HE????

      Sorry to run on so long.  Overall, I liked it.  Give my regards to
the King of Romania...   =)


                                                 -- Mark

OK, nobody has mentioned that a majority of the Red Room sequence was
filmed backwards.  Which means the actors learned their lines in
reverse.  So, my question is, was the sound we heard just the audio
running backwards, or did they mess with a forward running version?

RGB

P.S.  Red Room spoken in reverse sounds like "murder".

A show of hands... how many paused at the bathroom door after watching the
finale?  "Mmmm... I don't think I need to brush my teeth tonight, nope,
definitely not tonight...."  Eeeek! 

I, too, suddenly turned upside-down during the closing credits to catch LP's
last appearance.

"My, Windom looks awfully pale this morning.... AAAAA!!!!"  -Me

Lana's lame excuse for a 7 veils dance deserved to go down in flames.  No
wonder Dick switched his vote to Annie.  Lana should have watched the "Temple
Dance in Praise of Eros" from "History of the World, Part 1"!  :-)  ("He is a
eunuch.  _He_ is a _eunuch_!  He's *DEAD*!")

I think it would have been funny, while Annie was rapid-firing Scripture, to
insert the Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear.  

Bobby got clobbered by the ersatz Log, and _Mike_ had the head wound and said
he got hit by "a tree", and Bobby was mooning over Shelly with no wounds at
all?   I am confused.

I disagree that the Major has never been to the White Lodge.  We know that his
memories of his trips into the Lodges have been blacked out, but his sub-
conscious memories leak out in dreams & intuitions.  And, he told Bobby of his
'vision' of a brilliantly lighted white marble mansion.  Then again, maybe it
really was a vision of the future, like Coop's '25 years later' dream.

I also don't think the Major was underused in the finale.  He had 3 scenes:
his escape and random walk through the woods, his oracular mumblings in the
sheriff's station (transcription, anyone?), and his smooching with the Mrs. 
in the Double R.  I sure hope he signs on for any TP movie.

How could anyone think that Catherine blew up her own brother?  Yes, she doesn't
_trust_ him, but sure as rain in Oregon it was Eckhardt who planted the
"Got you" surprise for Andrew.  After attacking the box with a rolling pin and
a pistol, I enjoyed his comeuppance, until realizing its full significance!

Loved Dell the bank manager.  There's nothing like a dead stop to make you
appreciate breakneck speeds.

A cool effect:  when the camera was pointed downwards (Dale's-eye view) at the
LMFAP or at the bloody Dale/Carolyn-Annie, wasn't the zigzag floor pattern
BIGGER?  Thus making the figures look undersized?  Or was I imagining things?

I haven't decided what to make of the Red Room scenes, but I loved them!  Did
anyone else connect the Pseudo-coffee with the viscous goo dripping from the 
coffee cup in the Dale/Annie Double-R scene last episode?  Perhaps Dale & 
Annie's love opened up enough of a 'doorway' to bring in some Waiting Room
Sludge!

I was also confused by the Giant's appearance in the Waiting Room.  He wasn't
very helpful.  Perhaps the Black Lodge's power has grown so great he is no
longer permitted to help Coop?

"I have to brush my teeth."  This is when everyone figured out the ending,
right?  But what about when Coop was in the sheriff's office, repeating,
"Fire, walk with me"?  A little subtle foreshadowing, maybe.

You have to hand it to Lynch.  The man does it his way.  

How about a letter-writing campaign to Lynch-Frost for more TP?
--------------------------------
Mike Malcom
"What exactly are we celebrating, bending over like this?" -Lucy

I can't believe they would end it like that.  So many unanswered
questions.  I just can't accept this.  It has to go on!!!!!

Sorry, I just lost it for a minute.  Boy, I never thought I would 
be addicted to a television show, but between T-P and China Beach...
I'm in trouble.

Ellon

--
*Hold me and Kiss me/Tell me how much you miss me/How can they keep us
apart/Got Love in our hearts/They say we're just two more crazy
Lovers/ I say all we need is one another!*  ERASURE  *ellon@ads.com*
**********************************************************************

Spoilers from final episode...

I loved it to death, but there *were* some scenes which were pretty
weak....

1) The whole log lady/oil scene.  "This is oil.  It leads to other
worlds.  My husband got it for me because it -- when combined with our
vinegar which lets us pass through time -- makes a nice salad
dressing.  By the way, it smells like burnt engine grease from season
one."  AGGGH!  Ronette's acting in that scene was none too grand.

  R:    "<snif> <snif> <Ewww.... Grody!> <whimper!>"  
  Coop: "yup.  she's afraid."

2) Donna in Ben's scene with the Haywards.  "You're my daddy!  You're
my daddy!"  ARRRGGH!

3) There were some things which were resolved in this last episode
which were so obvious that I'm left wondering what the point was.
First, we have Donna finding out that Ben's her father.  When she
confronted Ben backstage at the Miss tp contest, I half-expected the
entire miss tp follies to come onstage and say, "Dammit, Donna, he's
your father and we've all known for eighteen episodes."  I also have
the feeling that "Did Windom Earle really kill Caroline" was supposed
to have been a mystery of sorts.  This is the first time we hear WE
say he killed her, Caroline tells Dale that WE killed her, but I don't
see what this is all supposed to do for us.  Does this mean that Dale
is now at peace with Caroline's death?  Hardly.  Knowing who the
killer is is far a far different thing.  And we know that Dale has
suspected WE of having killed her since way back when.  It's as if
Caroline tells Dale, "yup.  you were right.  WE killed me.  but you
knew that already."

-Sho
-- sho@physics.purdue.edu

WARNING: SPOILER!!!


I am so pissed at Lynch. I waited *months* to see this show, and I could
have spent two hours doing something much more productive and getting
a life.

I didn't expect *all* the loose ends to be tied up, but Lynch left so many 
major things hanging, that it's not even worth mentioning them all. Many
of them were things that he had built up to be very significant (such as
BOB finding his way out of the Black Lodge in the last show before the 
final hiatus!) If BOB apparently no longer needs a host, why is he inside
Coop now?

The whole show just annoyed me. The drawn-out scene in the bank was a time
waster. And all those minutes of Coop running in and out of red rooms was
dizzying and annoying. Laura Palmer's screaming was unnerving and cloying. 
And Naedine getting clunked on the head and regaining her memory was so 
predictable. 

As for Cooper looking in the mirror and seeing BOB, about a dozen people on
this newsgroup "predicted" that months ago. 

I wanted to be knocked off my seat! I wanted to be blown away!

Twin Peaks has, in my opinion, ended with a small whimper and a bunch
of stupid cliches. Even if there is a movie, I won't pay $7 to see it. 

I'm disapponted, angry, annoyed, and just plain pissed off. I think that
we deserved a finale that was much better thought-out. I consider last
night's show an insult.

That's my 2 cents. 
-- Lynn Schneider lzs@indetech.com {sun,sharkey,pacbell}!indetech!lzs Fremont, CA

In article <1991Jun11.163051.4650@netcom.COM> dawn@netcom.COM (Darragh Nagle) writes:

   Laura Palmer's hand symbol looked like a symbol, similar to the
   pose in many Bhuddist paintings. Anyone know what it means?

Well, this may be too prosaic an explanation, but take a look at
Madonna's ``Vogue'' video.  ``Strike a pose'', indeed.

-30-
Bob

> > Someone mentioned that to me this morning (i.e. that the two rooms
> > was white and black lodge).
> > Has anyone sorted out what was in each place (there are 3 rooms right?
> > Waiting room, and two others?)  Perhaps if we break down what was

there was only _ONE_ room.  At first it looked like two, with the middle
passage in between them.  Then, near the end, when Coop starts wildly running
about, he is going in a circle, with each entrance bringing him to the same
room from different sides.  Look more carefully at those last 15 minutes,
people.  Good and evil the same? or someone thought it would look cool?

In article <TOM.91Jun11015926@kether.webo.dg.com> tom@kether.webo.dg.com (Tom Sullivan) writes:
> >What about Cooper saying "I Will" to Windom Earle's request to him
> >about trading his soul for Annie's life?  Is THIS why Bob now has
> >Cooper?  Note that Bob popped right in at that point, but mentioned
> >that Windom had overstepped his "authority"...Hmmmm......


Ok, maybe I wasn't paying enough attention, but... didn't BoB tell 
coop that Earle couldn't ask for his soul, and then BoB took Earles
soul.  When did he get into Cooper?  I just don't "get it".

Ellon
--
*Hold me and Kiss me/Tell me how much you miss me/How can they keep us
apart/Got Love in our hearts/They say we're just two more crazy
Lovers/ I say all we need is one another!*  ERASURE  *ellon@ads.com*
**********************************************************************

In article <Jun.11.11.25.55.1991.7115@pilot.njin.net>, giacobbe@pilot.njin.net (Jeff Giacobbe) writes...
> > 
> >SPOILER warning for those who haven't seen the final show !!!!!!!
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >OK.  First of all, one heck of a show, but I can't say I loved it or
> >hated it or felt cheated.  I CAN say I'm rather confused.  Permit me
> >to babble for a while and offer a theory or two:
> > 
> > 
> >Is it just me, or did anyone else notice some really strange sh*t
> >happening in the "real" world TP while Coop was in the Black Lodge??


[ Theory and examples of "time shift" deleted ]

> > 
> >A]  It is night when Coop enters the BL and Truman & Andy are waiting
> >'outside' for him. The Little Man offers Coop some coffee, S. Drool
> >Cup appears with the coffee, and repeats 'coffee, coffee, etc'.  When
> >next we see Truman and Andy it is 10 hours later and they have an
> >extremely slow and strange conversation.  Andy asks Truman "Do you
> >want coffee?"    (coincidence????). 


I don't think so. The conversation is slow because Truman is contemplating 
what he saw (Coop dissapearing into the BL).


> > 
> >Also, when Coop emerges from the BL, it is night again.  Did Truman
> >sit on that damned log for 24 hours, or was the 'day' scene with Andy
> >just time being out of sync while Coop was in the BL, and when he
> >(Coop) emerged, we are back to the same time frame, just a few minutes later???
> > 

Judging by Trumans EXTREMELY slow reaction to Coop's emergence from the BL, 
I think it's safe to assume that he had been there for "some time". A day ?
, two ?....uncertain.

> > 
> >B]  Also during the 'day' supposedly 10 hours after Coop went into the
> >BL, the TP folks are acting like nothing has happened.  I mean, there
> >has just been massive confusion and terror during the Miss TP
> >contest, with explosions and screams and a kidnapping (Annie), so why
> >the hell are Bobby and Shelly and the Major having just a lovely grand
> >'ol time at the diner as if nothing was out of the ordinary???  

Sounds like they filems dome sequences BEFORE they found out they needed a 
series finale, so they re-shot and created scenes inbetween to "help" them 
get to the final "confrontation" in a 2 hour movie.

> > 
> >And speaking of Bobby, he looked pretty chipper for a guy that got
> >*smashed* across the face with a log just 10 hours before!
> > 
> >And speaking of the Major, he too looked pretty good for a guy that
> >was a babbling, drugged-out veggie just 10 hours before!  (didn't notice
> >scars or bandages on either of them)
> > 
> >Not to mention the German waitress who shows up out of nowhere...

All related to filming "out of sequence" scenes.

> > 
> >What really got me about the "Happy Diner" scene was Mrs. Palmer.  Dr.
> >Jacoby waltzes in with her and she says to the Major "I'm in the Black
> >Lodge with W. Earle" (or some reference to the BL)   This was the only
> >ominous thing in the whole scene, and it made me wonder whether the
> >whole scene wasn't really happening, or was only happening because of
> >the time shift.  Mrs Palmer's words seemed to be a message to the
> >Major that this 'day' wasn't real, it was only an illusion (or
> >alternate reality) brought on by Cooper's exploits in the BL.
> > 

It really happened, of course, that was the only real reason for that scene
 (again it may have been added after the initial filming of the episode)

> > 
> >OK, so those are my thoughts.  Of course, the only problem is it
> >DOESN'T explain the last scene of Cooper/Bob.   However, it does offer
> >a possible explanation as to to why the townsfolk were so oblivious to
> >the events of the past 6 (?) episodes.
> > 
> > 
> >Please comment and/or flame this theory.  As you can see, I'm quite
> >confused :-)  and would appreciate any spiritual guidance.
> > 

No flames....

> >Thanks,
> > 
> >Jeff
> > 
> >p.s. In the BL, did Cooper's coffee turn to OIL ??
> > 

You, probably "scorched oil"

-----------------

   One word sums up probably the responsibility of any Vice President,
   and that one word is 'to be prepared.'

                            --- Vice President Dan Quayle
-----------------

mccurdy@ucselx.sdsu.edu (mccurdy m) writes:

> > All this made-for-t.v.-movie was was a ploy by d. lynch to get t.p.
> > viewers to write the network demanding more episodes. Ha! The jokes on
> > us. 

What "made-for-TV-movie" ploy?  ABC had two first-run episodes left on a
series that they had canceled, and figured that they could make a little
bit more money by airing both together in a two-hour block.  The two
episodes were written and filmed as the last two episodes of the season,
not of the series.  Nobody promised that everything would be wrapped up
at the end of the last episode.

I can understand being annoyed at having TP end with a dozen unresolved
cliffhangers, but if you want to blame someone for that, blame all the
people who wimped out on the show early this season, not Mark Frost and
David Lynch.  I think they did a great job, especially considering the
medium they were working with -- series television.  If Lynch gets to do
the theatrical movie, you can bet that I'll be first in line, regardless
of how it ties in with the TV series . . . TWIN PEAKS with a motion-picture
budget and shot on a motion-picture schedule (as opposed to the episode-a-
week constraints that drained a lot of the life out of the series during
the second season) will be a wonder to behold.  Remember the pilot.

(ObFaveMoment from the last two episodes: the Anonymous Worker and his
Lovely Deer.)
                                                  Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
STUDIO NIBBLE -- "America's Favorite Lunchtime Snack"

In article <7055@vela.acs.oakland.edu>, rjohnson@vela.acs.oakland.edu (R o d Johnson) writes:
> >In article <mr.676663318@ogre> mr@ogre.cica.indiana.edu (Michael Regoli) writes:
>> >>In <7051@vela.acs.oakland.edu> rjohnson@vela.acs.oakland.edu (R o d
>> >>Johnson) writes: 

>>> >>>But we saw Dell's glasses fly across the street and into a bush, and

>> >>HARDLY a bush, man!  That was a Pseudotsuga taxifolia!  (More fondly
>> >>known as a Douglas Fir!)

> >Get a *life*.

Actually, in the northwest, Douglas Firs are fondly known as Pseudotsuga
Menziesii, after a botanist named Menzies.  I forgot the Latin translation
of 'tsuga'....

The only reason I know is that it's the Oregon state tree, & I am a native.

-----------------------------------------------
Mike Malcom
"The Log Lady stole my truck!" - Pete

Small points: (since there is so much to read anyways!)

What is annoying to me (and others) seems to be the feeling of being left
hanging- fuck the 'well, there is going to be a movie' noise- we've waited
a long,long time for an ending, and didn't get one.
I felt that part 1 could have been cut down to about 20 minutes (5 minutes
minimum from the dancing girls- both being coreographed and the talent show),
and that the extra time could have been put to quite good use for the final
part.

I think we were expecting to much out of Lynch- there were a lot of letdowns-
the donna/ben crap- the eternal (too long is too long, no matter who you are)
banker scene- the nadine recovers crap (banal, at best), and, most important,
the lack of cohesive ending-

The stuff with coop as bob scared the crapola out of everyone, that was 
beautifully done, but when the credits stared rolling right after that, I
felt cheated- as if we were given a fine meal on silver plates, and nothing
to eat it with....


rON. (blowfish@triton.unm.edu!ariel.unm.edu)
"It is only with the heart that one see rightly;
 what is essential is invisible to the eye."

In article <1991Jun11.163051.4650@netcom.COM> dawn@netcom.COM (Darragh Nagle) writes:
> >Laura Palmer's hand symbol looked like a symbol, similar to the
> >pose in many Bhuddist paintings. Anyone know what it means?

I thought it looked like Vanna White, on Wheel of Fortune.

Someone (i forgot which post--sorry!) suggested that catherine got to
the safety deposit box first and placed the bomb.  This seems possible
for two reasons:

1. the note was addressed to Andrew.  However, the original Chinease
puzzle box was given to Catherine.  How could Eckhardt have known that
ANDREW would be the to finally solve the puzzle.

2.  Did Ekhardt know that Andrew was alive even?  I don't think so, but
correct me if I'm wrong!


MJ 


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
MJ Swede
CMU graduate program in the biological sciences

"If I have seen farther, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants"

"Standing on the shoulders of giants leaves me cold/I want a main idea
to call my own."

I hated the episode, but it was still better than anything else on TV now.

Section 1: 25 years.

How long does it take for Jupiter and Saturn to align?
By my calculations: 20 - 25 years. (Coincidence?)

When will Coop see Laura again?
20 - 25 years.

When did W.E. get the boot from the Black Lodge project?
20-25 years ago.

Now, I think we have a cycle here.  Every 20-25 years a good cop goes into
the Black Lodge and comes out as a bad guy.  Happened with WE, happening with
CooP.  Since WE was working on the BL before Coop met him, Coop will probably
get a partner soon after marrying Annie.  Train the partner, have the partner
fall in love with Annie, kill annie ...


Section 2: Harry and Coop

Harry is at the door to the bathroom right now.  What would you do if you've
seen all the things that Harry has over the past 30 (about) days.  Coop is
freaking out, pounding his head like Leland.  If I were Harry, I'd pull my
revolver and kill Coop where he stands.  Or wait until after June when the
Lodge door is closed for 25 years.  While BOB is out in a main host
(WE --> Coop) he can roam freely around from pawn to pawn without giving up his
hold on the main host.  Kill the main host without a replacement, and BOB is
outta here.

Section 3: January to June

While it hasn't been explicitly stated, each episode of TP corresponds to about
1 day in Peaks time.  So, by the timeline, it should be about mid-March,
plenty of time for an excursion into the Black Lodge by Harry, Annie, and
the Major.  If Annie is alive, it is her perspective that we need to hear to
find out about the Black Lodge, Coop ain't reliable in this state.

Oh well, I need to brush my teeth.
CMS

  How's Annie? How's Annie?

-- * Dana H. Myers KK6JQ | Views expressed here are * * (213) 337-5136 | mine and do not necessarily * * dana@locus.com| reflect those of my employer *

Did anyone else really miss the return of Invitation to Love? I did. ';-(

Picture this, though:


Coops hotel room- final scene- Truman at Our Heros side, TV playing in
the backgound. What is on? the only thing that is ever on in TP- I to L....

Announcer: 'Invitation to Love'; every day brings a new hope and another...
Invitation to Love....
(irrelevant flute riff in the backgounrd)
Chet: Jade, I knew you would come back! I knew it!
Jade: After Motana attacked you, my love, I thought you would never be the
same again!
Chet: Oh Jade!
Jade: Oh Chet!
Announcer: 'Invitation to Love'; a new light and a new hope in every....
Invitation to Love...
(Cooper stirrs, Truman wakes him.....)

Heh, heh, heh- would have put just the fine touch on the scene...


rON. (blowfish@triton.unm.edu!ariel.unm.edu)
"It is only with the heart that one see rightly;
 what is essential is invisible to the eye."

I wonder.....

How many people would be saying the ending was too contrived if had been
"wrapped up" with out any loose ends?  Seems that was what a lot of
people were complaining about with the Leland death scene, before.

I wonder if it's some of the same people complaining that this time the
ends are not tied up...?

Just enjoy it, it was fun even if there were cliffhangers. 


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
MJ Swede
CMU graduate program in the biological sciences

"If I have seen farther, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants"

"Standing on the shoulders of giants leaves me cold/I want a main idea
to call my own."

Sigh.
The scene with the banker toddling back and forth between Audrey, the
water cooler and the sleeping (dead?) clerk was incredible.  Will go
into television history.
 
 Grin.  I wonder how many thousands of people ran to their TV during the
 credits with their Head upside down.  Yes.  It was Laura.

 Can't wait for the movie. 

-- | Gordon Harry Shephard | Distributed Computing Support Group | | Academic Computing Services | Phone: (604)291-3930 (604)464-4991 | | Simon Fraser University | USERGHS@SFU.BITNET | | Burnaby, BC, Canada. V5A 1S6 | Shephard@Whistler.sfu.ca |

czahrt@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu (Brian Morrison) writes:

> >Cooper faced his confrontation with the Black Lodge with imperfect 
> >courage.  He forgot to face evil and fear with love.  His previous comments
> >to Agent Roger Hardy (the FBI agent played by Clarence Williams III) that
> >he is looking 'beyond the board...looking at the world with love' exemplified
> >this philosophy.  But in the true test, Cooper failed.  

> >He did not save Windom Earle from BOB.  (Gathering thoughts here...)
> >Cooper loved Annie, and she was the focus of his love, but in order to 
> >truly love, to look at the world with love, you must ALSO love your enemies.
> >In failing to save Windom, Cooper could not save himself...hence...being
> >possesed by BOB.

I agree with this, and I think that the solution should be obvious.
The only person we've seen on the show capable of the complete love
needed solve the problem of the Black Lodge is Albert.

Didn't someone post a comment along the lines that Albert was going
to be in the movie (if such a beast occurs?)

  -Jeff Spencer

P.S.  Now that I have graduated, they are kicking me out.  It's been
      fun, y'all.

In article <5396.28540658@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu>, scduncan@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu writes:

> > -- i desperately need to get ahold of the entire second season run on tape.
> > are there any legal means of doing this?  

Aaah, you had to remind me.  I missed the creamed corn episode, and I was planning to
catch it in reruns.  Reruns.  Hah.  Well, screw that now.
-- cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com --If you believe that I speak for my company, OR cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special Investors' Packet...

In article <1991Jun11.144919.6010@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu>, howie@ivory.cc.columbia.edu (Howie Kaye) writes...
> > 
>> >>  I'm angry that they dropped an extremely interesting plot line (KING ARTHUR 
>> >>  !!) they mentioned it and then *** POOF *** they dropped it.  Maybe 
>> >>  spanning from England to Twin Peaks was too much?  not for me.
>> >>  
>> >>  
> > 
> >No, bringing in a King Arthur plot would have been a lame, unoriginal way of  
> >tying things up.  TP didn't need something like that to make it work.
> > 

I don't think it would have been lame or unoriginal. GRANTED, they probably 
should not devote the entire conflict strictly to Arthurian legend but a more 
than passing mention would have added a little more "depth" or 
"lasting/eternal good/bad struggle" feeling rather than having this whole 
mess restricted to little ole "Twin Peaks".



-----------------

   One word sums up probably the responsibility of any Vice President,
   and that one word is 'to be prepared.'

                            --- Vice President Dan Quayle
-----------------

In article <CMM.0.90.2.676613228.tvanhorn@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, tvanhorn@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Thomas F Van Horne) writes:

> > Alternatively, the Leland evil form existed as a seperate entity in
> > the black Lodge and was obviously kin to the evil Dale form. Perhaps
> > this is the Lodge's representation of possession by Bob.

Hawk said that your spirit had to visit the Black Lodge and overcome your
evil self before it could proceed to the White Lodge.  Sounds like everyone
has an evil self in the Black Lodge; you don't have to be possessed by BOB.
-- cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com --If you believe that I speak for my company, OR cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special Investors' Packet...

You know, it's funny -- I was actually pretty close in my guess as to how
it would end, and yet I was disappointed.

Anyways, here is how I thought it should have ended. Coop appears to save
Annie, but makes some slip-up that the viewer is supposed to catch. We see
Coop and Annie in a hotel room, dressing for something.

Cooper is standing by a table, finishing a glass of wine. Annie sits at a
dressing table.

COOPER: Are you almost ready?

ANNIE: Almost. I just have to finish my makeup.

Cooper puts tie around his neck, goes into bathroom to tie it, closes
door. We see Annie putting on her makeup. Same composition as the initial
image of Josie in the pilot. A thud in the bathroom as she finishes her
makeup and smiles. The camera moves around behind her to show Bob's face
grinning in the mirror. The bathroom door opens and Cooper comes out,
dragging himself along the floor, collapsing propped up against the bed.
There is a knock at the door.

ANNIE: That will be the waiter with the room service.

She goes to her purse and pulls out an exacto knife. She walks to the door
and grasps the handle to open it as Cooper watches helplessly. Freeze and
dissolve to the shot of Laura as homecoming queen. Final credits over the
picture in total silence.

In article <APPEL.91Jun11120300@sting.xcf.Berkeley.EDU>, appel@xcf.Berkeley.EDU (Shannon D. Appel) writes...
> >In article <1991Jun11.163051.4650@netcom.COM> dawn@netcom.COM (Darragh Nagle) writes:
>> >>Laura Palmer's hand symbol looked like a symbol, similar to the
>> >>pose in many Bhuddist paintings. Anyone know what it means?
> > 
> >I thought it looked like Vanna White, on Wheel of Fortune.


I was ready for a bottle of shampoo to materialize in her hands and she 
says "This is the shampoo I use !!" :-)

-----------------

   One word sums up probably the responsibility of any Vice President,
   and that one word is 'to be prepared.'

                            --- Vice President Dan Quayle
-----------------

In article <mr.676663318@ogre>, mr@ogre.cica.indiana.edu (Michael Regoli) writes:
> > In <7051@vela.acs.oakland.edu> rjohnson@vela.acs.oakland.edu (R o d
> > Johnson) writes: 
> >  
>> > >In article <20438@sdcc6.ucsd.edu> orovner@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Oleg
> > Rovner) writes: 
> > 
>>> > >>1: We DID not see any bodies, except Ben's and he was moving.
> > 
>> > >But we saw Dell's glasses fly across the street and into a bush, and
>> > >he was *outside* the vault.  
> > 
> > HARDLY a bush, man!  That was a Pseudotsuga taxifolia!  (More fondly
> > known as a Douglas Fir!)

Dell's glasses? I thought they were Andrew Packard's, and were the tipoff
that our Andrew had indeed bought the big one. (Loved those dollar bills 
floating down.) Remember the nighttime scene where Andrew exchanges the
keys? His glasses looked like that, heavy and black... I noticed them 
because he wasn't wearing glasses like that in earlier episodes. [Caveat:
I haven't checked this on the tape, could be way off base here.]

I had assumed that the bomb was Thomas Eckhardt's little parting gesture.
Thanks to the poster who suggested that it was Catherine. Of course, makes
more sense, in character.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keith Dawson   <dawson@Atex.Kodak.COM>    voice=508-670-4025    fax=508-670-4033
Atex Advanced Publishing Sys., 165 Lexington Rd. (400/165L), Billerica, MA 01821
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In article <TOM.91Jun10235507@kether.webo.dg.com>, tom@kether.webo.dg.com (Tom Sullivan) writes...
> >(Un)Wholly cup of black joe!!  I am PISSED, and probably will continue


> >Here's a theory for the sequel:  Since it appears that Harry
> >will know that Cooper is now Cooper-Bar (Anti-Cooper, or perhaps
> >Cooper-Bob, Coobob, Bobper, BooBer....), he will let Harland know.

I *like* CooBob :-)

-----------------

   One word sums up probably the responsibility of any Vice President,
   and that one word is 'to be prepared.'

                            --- Vice President Dan Quayle
-----------------

In article <TOM.91Jun11015926@kether.webo.dg.com>, tom@kether.webo.dg.com (Tom Sullivan) writes...
> >What about Cooper saying "I Will" to Windom Earle's request to him
> >about trading his soul for Annie's life?  Is THIS why Bob now has
> >Cooper?  Note that Bob popped right in at that point, but mentioned
> >that Windom had overstepped his "authority"...Hmmmm......

Yes! As a netter noticed (try saying THAT five times fast!), WE did not 
have the authority but BoB DID! I think Coop really lost it when he *ran* 
from his darker side instead of confronting it. When it caught him, it 
overpowered him and replaced him in the real world.

The combination of these two things ("I will" and running/being caught) 
caused Coop to fail the "test"

By the way...

I knew...i KNew....I KNEW!...Annie was going to get Coop in trouble. I KNEW 
IT !!!!

COOP drop ANNIE!! (you should've done it along time ago bud)

Now we have CooBob to deal with.


-----------------

   One word sums up probably the responsibility of any Vice President,
   and that one word is 'to be prepared.'

                            --- Vice President Dan Quayle
-----------------

In article <131360@puff.encore.com> ereynold@encore.com (Elizabeth Reynolds) writes:
   From article <5529@autodesk.COM>, by robertj@unreal.uucp (Young Rob Jellinghaus):

   > You all know Lynch doesn't believe in happy endings.  You all KNOW that.

   Eh?  We do? 

   I always thought happy endings were something you could count on
   seeing in Lynch's work (right up there with flames, prom dresses,
   and open head injuries) -- although he'll put you through hell
   to get there.  Sheesh, in _The Elephant Man_, the guy DIES and
   it's still a happy ending.

This is absolutely correct.  Look at the endings:

[Warning: Spoilers for Lynch feature films.]

Elephant Man - The Elephant Man refuses to sleep upright, as he
usually does, but will sleep on pillow, like an ordinary man.  This
will asphyxiate him, but is presented as a triumph of his humanity.

Dune - Muadib kills the bad guys, gets the girl, and saves the planet
(to coin a phrase).  Hell, it rains on the desert planet for the first
time in millenia, contrary to all reason.

Blue Velvet - Jeffrey and Isabella Rossellini's characters go through
hell, but, in the end, Jeffrey is reunited with his loved ones and
Isabella is reunited with her child.

Wild at Heart - Sailor and Lula and Child happy together at last.
This is a clear example of Lynch going out of his way to create a
happy ending.  Most of the movie (except for the Wizard of Oz imagery)
is taken directly from the novel.  But the novel ends at the point
where Sailor tells Lula: ``You don't need any more trouble in your
life.''  Sailor's change of heart is original to Lynch, and he invokes
Glynda the Good to bring it about.

In most of his other works, Lynch sends his protagonist(s) through
Chapel Perilous, only to have them return, wounded, perhaps, but
unbowed and victorious at the end.  The outcome of Cooper's expedition
to Chapel Perilous is unique (at least in his post-Eraserhead work.)

-30-
Bob

``You make us all look like primates.''

In article <20441@sdcc6.ucsd.edu>, jsnell@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Jason Snell) writes:
> > * Briggs is the guy. He's the one who is told by the Log Lady that "Coop
> >   Is With Me at the Black Lodge"... he's got to be the one to save him.

I was disappointed that Coop didn't bring Briggs with him to the Lodge.  I
guess he was still too whacked out.  By the way, that wasn't the Log Lady,
it was Mrs. Palmer, the "sensitive."

"Only the gifted and the damned are drawn to Dead Dog Farm."
-- cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com --If you believe that I speak for my company, OR cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special Investors' Packet...

In <9106111228.AA9649@cas.org> lwv27@CAS.BITNET (Larry W. Virden) writes:

> >Someone mentioned that to me this morning (i.e. that the two rooms
> >was white and black lodge).

> >Has anyone sorted out what was in each place (there are 3 rooms right?
> >Waiting room, and two others?)  Perhaps if we break down what was
> >seen in each room, it will begin to make sense...  Because I seem
> >to remember one room having almost nothing (either empty furniture
> >or completely empty) where as the other room was where bob, WE,
> >the dopples, etc. were all at.

Don't forget there must be rooms on the periphery of those other rooms (we
see Laura & everybody else coming in from a diff. entrance than Coop, right?).

> >--
> >Larry W. Virden                 UUCP: osu-cis!chemabs!lwv27
> >Same Mbox: BITNET: lwv27@cas    INET: lwv27%cas.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.Edu
> >Personal: 674 Falls Place,   Reynoldsburg,OH 43068-1614
> >America Online: lvirden
-- -- John Hawkinson jhawk@panix.com

In article <20450@sdcc6.ucsd.edu>, mhorn@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Melanie M. Horn) writes:
> > * If the Log Ladys husband knew about the oil, did he know
> >   about the Lodge itself?

Hey, what WAS the point about the oil?  Coop didn't have it with him when he went to the Lodge, so even that part about it being a "gateway" was a throwaway...?!


-- cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com --If you believe that I speak for my company, OR cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special Investors' Packet...

The Twin Peaks actors and actresses have been on local FM station KITS several times. They all say that the show will be back, no doubt. Spanish TV wants the show BAD and can afford to pay for it. Fox TV wants it, too, but doesn't have the money. The most likely scenario is that Spanish TV funds it, Fox syndicates it.
Life's a bistro...

If you're actually reading this group without seeing the finale...
beware of spoilers.












I'll spare everyone my personal feelings about whether this was
a "good" or "bad" show.  I agree with other posters in that I feel a
bit cheated in that I don't think the writers were looking very far
ahead as they were writing.  A lot of the make-it-up-as-you-go-along
stuff rubs me the wrong way.  But that's another story.

I'm posting about something weird I noticed while watching the
show.  These lyrics popped into my head as I watched:

"Love is but a song we sing... fear's the way we die..."

Sound familiar?  The last verse:

"You hold the key to love and fear,
 In your trembling hand  <---------------Obvious "quivering hand"
 Just one key unlocks them both,                 reference
 It's there at your command."


These lyrics are from a song the Indigo Girls cover called
"(Everybody) Get Together".  I can't recall the songwriter at the moment.
It's obviously a reference to WHITE AND BLACK LODGES!!!

Maybe if Coop had listened to more Indigo Girls instead of
Julie Crews all the time... or maybe if he'd just run a little faster...

Anyways, I say he deserved it.  If someone asks you to give up your
soul, you JUST DON'T DO IT!!! PERIOD!!!  Sure, he loved Annie, but
COME ON COOPER!  MR.TIBET/MR. SPIRITUALITY! HA!!!  If you give up THAT
part of you which is capable of love, what can you gain??  If you kill
that part of you which Annie loves, what do you do for her???  DUMB
DUMB DUMB move Cooper!  I thought you were wiser!  *I'D'VE* took a
couple of swings a WE before I forked over my bloody soul!

Regardless, I was a good run.  I'm hoping for a movie, just
because I really wanna know what happened to the vanishing CREAM CORN
KID!!!

--
James Welcher"He is DALE, eager for fun..."

In article <1991Jun11.171334.11904@panix.uucp> jhawk@panix.uucp (John Hawkinson) writes:
> >One little anomaly I noticed in the Black (/white?) Lodge scene last night:
> >  After Cooper has gone from room to room a couple times, the statue which is
> >in the hallway dissapears. Any comments?

I thought, while I was watching it, that there's a statue at *one* end
of the hallway and not the other.  I assumed it was put there in part
to serve as a reference point so that we could tell which room was
which.  At some point, though, it seemed that things got totally
turned around and inconsistent, sort of like the scene in "Yellow
Submarine" where Our Heroes run in one hotel room door and then out of
the door across the corridor.



-- Rod Johnson * rjohnson@vela.acs.oakland.edu * (313) 650 2315 "All wax is wedding wax" --Gertrude Stein

In article <1991Jun11.172628.5331@noose.ecn.purdue.edu>, brackney@author.ecn.purdue.edu (Larry J Brackney) writes...
> > 
> >  The general concensus which I am receiving from the group, is  that
> >Lynch's depiction of the Black Lodge was disappointing.  I can't
> >disagree more!  I found the maze of red curtains, disorienting,
> >distressing, and just plain spooky!

You find red curtains "disorientating, distressing and spooky" ???

Personally, I find leather chairs very distressing and spooky.
:-) :-) :-) :-) :-)  <--- note friendly, jesting "smilies"

> > 
> >  The atmosphere in the waiting room seemed quite oppressive.  It had
> >an evil/oily ambience which I though was entirely appropriate.  (I had
> >the same feeling watching Kubrick's "The Shining")  I had no difficulty
> >believing that this COULD be a vision of Hell.

I think Hell is a little more scary than people screaming behind curtains.

> > 
> >  As for Coop's present situation.  The LMFAP did say "doppleganger"
> >before WE, BOB and the evil Coop appeared.  My feeling is that Dale
> >is trapped in the Black Lodge, while his doppleganger is free to
> >roam the material plane.  I think it will be up to the Major (and
> >Annie?) to rescue him.  (I also think Truman is not up to the task.)

Bingo.  I also get the strangest feeling that (as one netter already 
pointed out) Andy will play a major role in Coop's release.

> > 
> >  As for Annie, did she make it out of the BL? 

Yes.

> > She didn't look to
> >good laying next to Coop in the clearing.  Perhaps she did die, and
> >Truman lied to spare Coops feelings upon his recovery?

She was a tad worse for wear, but Coop freed her at the expense of his own 
imprisonment. She probably IS recovering in the hospital.  There was no 
"hesitation" in Truman's voice when he told Coop about Annie's condition.


> >  In the final analysis?  I liked it.  Lynch did NOT wimp out.  I
> >would have been a bit miffed by a "happy ending." - IMHO of course!

True, but a COMPLETE (not necessarily happy) ending would have been nice.


-----------------

   One word sums up probably the responsibility of any Vice President,
   and that one word is 'to be prepared.'

                            --- Vice President Dan Quayle
-----------------

In article <wR5c42w163w@zitt>, joe@zitt (Joe Zitt) writes:
> > The MFAP said that he'd show up again as someone else -- who?

When he said "The next time you see me, it won't be me" or whatever it was he said,
I thought he was warning Coop that he was about to meet the "evil" LM with the white
eyes.

-- cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com --If you believe that I speak for my company, OR cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special Investors' Packet...

I love it!  The perfect ending. Audrey, Pete, Ben, Andrew all toast,
Coop in the black lodge forever, WE with a flame-induced lobotomy, and
Killer Bob on top of the world.  Kinda makes you feel like the end of
"It's a Wonderful Life", don't it?

"How's Annie? How's Annie? How's Annie? HOW'S ANNIE? H-O-W-'-S A-N-N-I-E?
HOW'S ANNNNNNIIIIIIIIEEEEEE???????"

Hee hee!

That Killer Coop, he's a pistol!  Think he'll be on "Comic Strip
Live" soon? 




-- Bill O'Donnell billo@ileaf.com Interleaf Inc. Prospect Place 9 Hillside Ave. Waltham, MA 02154 "How's Annie?" --Killer Coop

I may not be good for much in the way of writing _Rolling_Stone_
articles lately :-(, but when Keith Dawson drew my attention to
the fact that someone had predicted the final scene (almost), I
was able to come up with the posting in question.  (I gotta redeem
myself somehow...)

Three cheers to Daniel Mittleman, whose posting I quote in full:

------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dmittleman@misvax.mis.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.tv.twin-peaks
Subject: RS: a possible ending - but not all the steps to get there
Date: 13 Apr 91 13:00:47 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona - MIS Department

Fiona, I have no idea what it is you are looking for, but here are some
ideas I had yesterday..

I have this idea for a final scene, but only sketchy details of what
might come before it.

Sketchy details:

It seems to me that Windom Earle will manage to create a situation for
Cooper where Earle has the ability to unleash all of the forces of the
Black Lodge on the world.  Doing so would cause untold death and
destruction.  Cooper has the ability to stop Earle, but because of the
situation Earle has created, doing so was cost the life of Annie.  In
the climax Cooper decides to save the world, Annie is killed, Cooper is
a hero, but is left inconsolable and despondent.

Final scene:

We are just inside the doorway of Cooper's room at the Great Northern.
We see Cooper in a profile view sitting in a wooden chair at his
desk/dresser staring blankly into the mirror in front of him (not wholly
unlike the opening scene with Josie).  The room is dark and warm and
woody.  The camera angle slowly moves towards Cooper circling around
behind him.  Very haunting TP music picks up in the background.  As the
camera comes around behind Cooper we can see his reflection in the
mirror.  It is Bob smiling and laughing back out at him.  The picture
fades to black.  "Lynch/Frost" appears on the screen.

This is all a brainstorm - additional comments and suggestions are
welcome.

     ===================================================================
    |   BITNET:    dmittleman@arizmis        Daniel David Mittleman
|
    |   INTERNET:  danny@arizona.edu         Dept of Management
|
    |                                           Information Systems
|
     ===================================================================

In article <APPEL.91Jun11113642@sting.xcf.Berkeley.EDU> appel@xcf.Berkeley.EDU (Shannon D. Appel) writes:

> >there was only _ONE_ room.  At first it looked like two, with the middle
> >passage in between them.  Then, near the end, when Coop starts wildly running
> >about, he is going in a circle, with each entrance bringing him to the same
> >room from different sides.  Look more carefully at those last 15 minutes,
> >people.  Good and evil the same? or someone thought it would look cool?

The statue in the hallway seemed to be there with a surprising
irregularity... might be something to go back and check again... it
certainly disoriented me enough to lose track of exactly how many rooms
there were...

In article <20449@sdcc6.ucsd.edu> ee52fdn@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (...creeping debbie...) writes:

   Cooper and the little man from another place sitting in the red room.
   LMFAP:  When you see me again, it won't be me.  This is the waiting room.
   Would you like some coffee?  Some of your friends are here.
   Laura:  Hello Agent Cooper.  {snaps her fingers}  I'll see you in 25 years.
   Meanwhile {presents her hands}
   Great Northern room service waiter:  Hallelujah!
   LMFAP:  Hallelujah!
   GNRSW:  Coffee, Coffee, Coffee, Coffee, Coffee, Coffee  {sets down solid coffee
   for Cooper}
   Giant:  One and the same.
   {LMFAP rubs his hands.  Cooper picks his coffee - it's liquid.  When he's about
   to drink, it's solid.  LMFAP continues rubbing his hands.  The coffee's
   liquid.  LMFAP continues rubbing his hands.  The coffee's viscous.}
   LMFAP:  Wow, Bob, Wow.  Fire walk with me.
   {Fire.  Strobe effect.  Cooper walks to the other room.  Identical furniture
   but empty.  Back to the original room.}
   LMFAP:  Wrong way
   {Cooper goes back to to the other room.  LMFAP babbles excitedly. Then:}
   LMFAP:  Another friend
   {Maddy enters, LMFAP ducks behind a chair.}
   Maddy:  I'm Maddy.  Watch out for my cousin.
   {Cooper goes back to the original room.  It's empty.  Then:}
   LMFAP (shadow self):  Doppleganger
   Laura  (shadow self):  {presenting hands}  Meanwhile  {screams}
   {Back to the other room.  Cooper on the floor bleeding.  Back to the original
   room.  Caroline and Cooper on the floor bleeding.  No, it's Annie.  Annie
   gets up.}
   Cooper:  Caroline?
   Annie:  {gets up}  Dale.  I saw the face of the man who killed me.
   Cooper:  Annie... you saw the face of the man who killed you?
   Annie:  It was my husband.
   Cooper:  Annie?
   Annie:  Who's Annie?  It's me, it's me, it's me.
   Cooper:  Caroline?
   Caroline (shadow self):  You must be mistaken.  I'm alive.
   {Laura (shadow self) screaming.}
   Earle:  Dale Cooper.  If you give me your soul, I'll let Annie live.
   Cooper:  I will.
   {Earle stabs Cooper.  Fire.  Rewind.  BOB takes Earle}
   BOB:  {to Earle}  Be quiet.  Be quiet.  {to Cooper}  You go.  He is wrong.
   He can't ask for your soul.  I will take his.  {takes}
   {Cooper's shadow self enters as Cooper leaves}
   Leland (shadow self):  I did not kill anybody.
   {Cooper's shadow self chases Cooper and catches up to him.  BOB laughs.}

   -- 
   Edwin Nomura  --  enomura@ucsd.edu --  _________________________________________
   !       "Welcome to my world, involve yourself within my dream" - Slayer       !
   !     "As you realize only in dreams, do dreams come true" - Debbie Gibson     !
   ^^~~~~~~~~~~~~----------_______________________________________________________/

Hey...Thanks for the blow by blow....Good recollection!

jhawk@panix.uucp (John Hawkinson) comments:

> >One little anomaly I noticed in the Black (/white?) Lodge scene last night:
> >After Cooper has gone from room to room a couple times, the statue which is
> >in the hallway dissapears. Any comments?

Yes, a statue of _Venus._  Saturn and Jupiter are not alone in the current
planetary conjuction -- even in the smoggy skies off Manhattan we can see
that Venus is the brightest of the three... I took the Venus de Milo to be
Annie, Coop's Venus, and when the statue disappeared, I feared the worst for
her.  Or was it just that this symbol of love had fled?

Can anyone identify the statue in the waiting room?

As long as I'm putting my 2 cents in -- was no one else struck by the 
similarity bewteen the bank manager, walking with such trouble to give Audrey
a cup of water, and Senor Droolcup, taking forever to bring Coop his Joe?
Marx said, all great figures in history appear twice: the first time as 
tragedy, the second as farce.  Here the order is reversed (leaving aside the
question of greatness)!  

Beverages, potions, whatever, they're important in many myths.  When the 
coffee froze, it seemed a logical result of the freezing of time.  But when 
it turned viscous, it could have been time picking up steam again -- or was
it oil?  The oil of the gods is _burnt_ -- as are the offerings to the gods.
What would have happened if Coop had _drunk the oil?_

Or was it just pancake syrup? :)

Michael Flory (mjf@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu)

Say,

 Now that were through with ABC (thank god). Has anyone spoken to the
folks at Lynch/Frost productions to see what the latest scoop is? 

 TV movies? HBO? Showtime? Fox? Theaters?... WHAT???


 BTW- was it just me or were the way to many commercials durring the 
last episode. If ABC sold that much airtime to advertisers, it makes
you wonder why they ever canceled the show?

 "Wow, Bob, Wow!"

Marc T. Schneider   Sun Microsystems, Inc. :
                                           : " When you just don't have time   
       marc.schneider@eng.sun.com          :   for a polaroid...VideoPix"   
PH: (415) 336-6747  FAX: (415) 336-1816    :
--
Marc T. Schneider   Sun Microsystems, Inc. :
                                           : " When you just don't have time   
       marc.schneider@eng.sun.com          :   for a polaroid...VideoPix"   
PH: (415) 336-6747  FAX: (415) 336-1816    :

In <28551A76.2A35@deneva.sdd.trw.com> malcom@ridley.coyote.trw.com (Michael Malcom) writes:

> >A cool effect:  when the camera was pointed downwards (Dale's-eye view) at the
> >LMFAP or at the bloody Dale/Carolyn-Annie, wasn't the zigzag floor pattern
> >BIGGER?  Thus making the figures look undersized?  Or was I imagining things?
Close.  Take another look at the image, and you will see that it is a
less than perfect special effect, in which the actor stands in front of
a blue screen, and then his/her image is superimposed over a background.
They always seem to have that imperfect shimmer about them.  But yes,
the idea was to make the LMFAP look smaller.  (though the professional
way to do this, is set up a seperate stage in which the floor pattern is
Bigger).   
Audrey (Recently De-flowered): It's only been a day.  I hope it doesn't
       hurt this much in a week.   


-- | Gordon Harry Shephard | Distributed Computing Support Group | | Academic Computing Services | Phone: (604)291-3930 (604)464-4991 | | Simon Fraser University | USERGHS@SFU.BITNET | | Burnaby, BC, Canada. V5A 1S6 | Shephard@Whistler.sfu.ca |

In article <1991Jun11.115808.18912@crim.ca> vroomen@bond.crim.ca (Louis C. Vroomen) writes:


   And now, what of WE?  Is he a permanent resident of the BL?  It is interesting
   that when WE wants to take Coop's soul, it looks like he is using a knife
   but Bob just pulls it out.  And the soul comes out as flames?  Fire, come
   walk with me -- Soul, come walk with me?

I think it's interesting also that before that happened, Coop already
was bleeding from a wound.  Was this the wound (that would follow, ie
a premonition)?  Also, puncturing aorta's seems to be WE's trademark...

In article <XH83HPG@cs.swarthmore.edu> pouncy@campus.swarthmore.edu writes:
> >Comments about the last show:
> >
> >1.  Why does Lynch let Senor Droolcup and the bank teller walk so
> >s-l-o--w-l-y?  I think Lynch noticed the same thing that Kubrick 
> >discovered in 2001.  You can control an audience with 
> >speed.  Fast speed a la Star Wars gets you there, but so does
> >slow speed. Remember Kubrick's slow, stately space ship to 
> >Jupitar.
The 2001 business, I thought, partly to show how boring life in space
would be.

> >3.  Why are they calling the Black Lodge/White Lodge Glastonbury?
> >It's not an Indian name and it's certainly not a Tibetan name.
The name of the place where the gateway happens to be located is called
Glastonberry Grove.  This is also the location of the "power play" of
which I posted quite a lot of info on last week.  No one was calling the
lodges Glastonbury.

> >4.  Why the twelve trees and twelve rainbow trout?  Why
> >are the trees Sycamores?  Lynch's dad worked for the Interior
The 12 rainbow trout just reminded Truman of Glastonberry which has a
circle of 12 trees.  I don't know why the trees are Sycamores,
especially since the Access Guide says that they are 12 Great Firs.
Apparently, the song about the Sycamore that Lynch came up with for the
finale required that he change the 12 trees to Sycamores.


Rocky Giovinazzo

will@ogre (William Sadler) writes:

> >Maybe I am reading some of this in, but the finale seemed to be using
> >a whole bunch of imagery borrowed from Arthurian legends and even
> >Adonis myths.  The presence of the 12 rainbow trout, the 12 sycamores,
> >the name of the grove (supposedly the burial place of King Arthur),
> >and the wound in Cooper's side are all elements of what someone has
> >termed "fisher-king" archetypes as found in grail stories, the Golden
> >Bough, etc.  Supposedly what happens is that the knight, in this case
> >Cooper, finds entrance into some separate place representing the
> >psyche (?) and is there presented with 5 questions.  
3 questions!
Chuck

In article <6075@lectroid.sw.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (Chris Tavares) writes:

> >"Only the gifted and the damned are drawn to Dead Dog Farm."

Great, a portmanteau quote.  TP apocrpyha, right up there with "Fire,
let's go for a stroll" and 1/26.


-- Rod Johnson * rjohnson@vela.acs.oakland.edu * (313) 650 2315 "All wax is wedding wax" --Gertrude Stein

I don't know which was worse.  The fact that T.P. ended in a flaccid
wash of obtuse, capricious, and pointless imagery (not to mention
repetitive and dull), or that I turned off a perfectly good Pirates game
to watch it.

Let's pray for a better movie, minus the scatter-shot scripts that piss
away so much valuable energy on gratuitous subplots.  And if the
symbolism is going to be this obscure, a written backgrounder would be
helpful for those of us who don't care to grope for cohesive, unifying
themes in this sargasso sea of false starts, dangling references, and
deadwood.

----------
Douglas Roesch, Research Programmer
345B Baker Hall, Carnegie-Mellon University
Pittsburgh, PA   15213
roesch@psy.cmu.edu

In article <13009@uwm.edu> gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu writes:
> >
>> >> Has anyone sorted out what was in each place (there are 3 rooms right?
>> >> Waiting room, and two others?)  Perhaps if we break down what was
> >
> >I think maybe there were just the two rooms, that just kept changing
> >their inhabitants...  based on who was inside or what they wanted him
> >to see or something...

It could be that the order of the rooms and who is the rooms when is 
related to what Cooper said about the gateway to the lodges.  The
gateway appears at a certain time at a certain place-- similar to the
path of a falling star over time from the point of view of the falling
star.  In other words, the contents of the rooms depended on points in
time.  For instance, Maddy appeared in a room for some period of time
and then began to vanish.  

Just a thought.

Rocky Giovinazzo

In article <RGB.91Jun11134559@bigsleep.engin.umich.edu> rgb@engin.umich.edu (Rod G. Bogart) writes:
> >OK, nobody has mentioned that a majority of the Red Room sequence was
> >filmed backwards.  Which means the actors learned their lines in
> >reverse.  So, my question is, was the sound we heard just the audio
> >running backwards, or did they mess with a forward running version?

As was done in the 1st dream, the LMFAP (and others) spoke their lines 
in reverse.  The film was then played in reverse.  You can notice this
in not only audio but also in the quirky movements of people acting
backwards.

Rocky Giovinazzo

The crybabies who are moaning on the net that Lynch/Frost did not spoon
fed them a TV pablum finale tied up in a pretty bow are a bunch of
wimps!  Good art stimulates the mind and is not necessarily "pretty" or
"pat"!  I say that it is fine that there are many unanswered questions
left, especially a huge humdinger of a question.  All this discussion
shows just how much peoples minds have been stimulated!  Think of what
Cooper and Briggs faced!  The crybabies mental anguish is about as
significant as an pine weasel fart in a forest with noone to hear it.

The best part about the ending is the scope that it opens up for Kyle
MacLachlan.  His acting in "Blue Velvet", "The Hidden", and "Twin
Peaks" has been remarkable for its restraint and subtlety.  Given the
chance at the end of the 2nd season finale to cut loose, he cut loose!
There is bound to be a sequel be it another season somehow or, as seems
more likely at this point, a film.  Well, Kyle now has the chance to be
really expressive and I look forward to it.  I thought that the way he
laughed at the end was very short, but brilliant acting.  Lesser actors
would not be able to achieve such level of verisimilitude, the way he
cranked up the intensity in such a brief interval.

The ending is not nearly as obvious as many suppose.  Cooper could be
possesed by Bob, but I haven't seen anybody mention the possibility
that Agent Cooper in his infinite wisdom is stronger than Bob and is
running a master scam to defeat him.  In other words, he is allowing
Bob to think he is possesing Cooper.  Then, possibly, Bob will let his
guard down, materialize in order to kill Annie, and while Bob is
distracted, Cooper will get him in the nick of time.  Cooper hasn't
"lost" to Bob yet.  Remember he voluntarily took up Bob's offer (made
through Windam) of trading his soul for Annie's life.

Yet another possibility for the movie is that Agent Cooper may have to
be rescued from the Black Lodge and his doppelganger on earth
defeated.  If I were writing it, I'd have Annie, Garland Briggs and
Hawk pressed into service.  The first two have been to the Black
Lodge.  Annie and Cooper are in love, so the connection is obvious, but
what is interesting is that Annie has a dark background and so may have
weaknesses and/or hidden strengths just like Dale.  Briggs brings the
power of reason.  Hawk has been revealed to have spiritual
understandings.  One might write in Andy since he is so obviously pure
of heart and innocent.

One thing that I think is great about Lynch's art in creating Twin
Peaks is that he so often does the "obvious" and gets away with it by
investing it with a heavy load of mythmaking, whimsy, and heart, much
like George Lucas uses the same three elements.

Too bad we didn't see more of the singer.

Regarding Audrey and Pete:  Audrey was some distance away from the
blast which took place in a very large room.  Furthermore, the bomb
appeared to be simple explosive and not a pipe bomb or something more
deadly.  The blast was undoubtedly channeled by the shape of the safety
deposit box so that Packard got it full force in the head.  That would
have absorbed a lot of the energy and Pete off to the right was
probably well shielded by the door of the box.

Alan.

In article <TOM.91Jun10235507@kether.webo.dg.com> tom@kether.webo.dg.com (Tom Sullivan) writes:
> >Cooper-Bob, Coobob, Bobper, BooBer....), he will let Harland know.
> >Harland will mount a rescue mission to get Dale.  Dale-bar-Bob will go
> >after Harland to stop him.  Dale-bar and Bob will get tricked or
> >something and Dale and Harland escape.  This of course assumes that
> >David Lynch wants to satisfy my urge (and need) to rescue Dale...Oh well...
> >And what about Annie???

Of course you mean, Garland.  Also, I don't really understand your
possible movie continuation.  I think that rescuing Dale needs to be
done through the gateway-- possibly, only Dale can rescue himself.

Rocky Giovinazzo

In article <TOM.91Jun11015926@kether.webo.dg.com> tom@kether.webo.dg.com (Tom Sullivan) writes:
> >What about Cooper saying "I Will" to Windom Earle's request to him
> >about trading his soul for Annie's life?  Is THIS why Bob now has
> >Cooper?  Note that Bob popped right in at that point, but mentioned
> >that Windom had overstepped his "authority"...Hmmmm......

This may have been a test of Cooper's love for Annie-- I guess he 
"passed" this part?  Although he failed otherwise.

Rocky Giovinazzo

In article <wR5c42w163w@zitt> joe@zitt (Joe Zitt) writes:

   The MFAP said that he'd show up again as someone else -- who?

What he said was closer to: ``When you see me again, it won't be me.''
I think that what he meant was that each successive apearance of the
LMFAP was merely someone who looked like him: doppelgangers (und
treppelgangers, usw).  Note that this happens with Laura.  The first
Laura we see, who says she won't see Cooper for 25 years, has clear
eyes, while Laura/Bob, has glazed eyes.  This seems to be a
distinguishing mark of the doppelgangers.  Also, the only Leland we
see has glazed eyes, and the anti-Cooper also has glazed eyes.  Still,
the whole XXX Lodge sequence leaves open the question of what happened
to those who have died and exactly whose side the supernatural
entities are playing on---except for Bob, of course, who remains
unchanging in his Bobhood.

   Seems like we were right in guessing that the Waiter and the Giant were
   the same.

Well, there seem to be two strains of interpretation here about what
the Giant's ``One and the same'' means:

(1) Since we see the Waiter bring the coffee and the Giant go back, it
is the Waiter and the Giant that are ``One and the same''.  (This is
what I took it to mean.)

(2) Since the Giant says ``One and the same'' as he sits down beside
the LMFAP, he means that the two of them are ``One and the same''.  I
personally disfavor this, although I did think, when I saw the two of
them sitting side by side that this answered Albert's question to Coop
about the Giant: ``Any relation to the dwarf?''

Goddamn deictic statements where the speakers don't deict properly!

   Was that Laura reflected in the coffee cup in the end titles?

Yes.  Her reflection starts out unfocussed and becomes clearer.  If
you watch closely, you can see her wink.  I had a frightening moment
watching the image come up; while the image of was still sort of
fuzzy, I thought it was Bob reflected in the cup, which would have
really depressed me no end.

   Did Doc kill Ben, or merely injure him?

I hadn't thought he killed him.  Isn't the wound on Ben's forehead in
the same place as Cooper's when he smashes his head into the mirror.
(In fact, the Doc and Ben scene reminded me of the Leland and Maddy
scene, in this one respect.)

-30-
Bob

``You make us all look like primates.''

rgb@engin.umich.edu (Rod G. Bogart) writes:

> >OK, nobody has mentioned that a majority of the Red Room sequence was
> >filmed backwards.  Which means the actors learned their lines in
> >reverse.  So, my question is, was the sound we heard just the audio
> >running backwards, or did they mess with a forward running version?

Well this thread has actually been done to death, but in a nutshell:

The actors were recorded on videotape doing their lines and movements
normally (and under Lynch's direction).  The videotape was then played
backwards for the actors so that they could listen to and memorize their
reversed words and movements.  They then went before the cameras and
acted out the learned reverse-speak and movements.  The film was then 
reversed, and this is what we see in the final print.  This process was 
painstakingly done shot-by-shot, and presumably took a helluva long time.

Note that since shots involving Cooper were always "normal", MacLachlan
never had to do this, but once:  there was the shot with Windom Earle 
attempting to suck Coop's soul out of him where MacLachlan did have to 
do this, but Coop's words "I will" were dubbed in later to maintain the
continuity of Coop's normal-speak.


===============================================================================
    :: :: :: :: ::    Synth         synth@yenta.alb.nm.us  "I'll see you again
 :: :: :: :: :: :: :: (F. Oberheim) synth@euler.unm.edu      in 25 years ..."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Fire your boss! Get out of the rat race forever. Call 24hr msg (505) 764-0621
===============================================================================
"I have come here to chew sushi and kick butt.  And I'm all out of sushi."
    -- Mystery Science Theater 3000

In article <1991Jun11.151133.10526@grebyn.com> fi@grebyn.com (Fiona Oceanstar) writes:

   We should start a support group.  Or keep this one going.

I assume it'll keep going as long as people want it to keep going.
Consider that the Prisoner group started up decades after the show it
discusses had gone off the air.  And even though The Prisoner is still
re-aired, there are still only 17 episodes (plus one or 2 variants,
and maybe some of the Danger Man series) to discuss.  As long as
people find it worthwhile to talk about Twin Peaks, they will.

-30-
Bob

``You make the rest of us look like primates.''

In article <1991Jun11.222400.4615@risky.ecs.umass.edu> giovin@medr0.ecs.umass.edu (Rocky J Giovinazzo) writes:
> >In article <XH83HPG@cs.swarthmore.edu> pouncy@campus.swarthmore.edu writes:

>> >>1.  Why does Lynch let Senor Droolcup and the bank teller walk so
>> >>s-l-o--w-l-y?  I think Lynch noticed the same thing that Kubrick 
>> >>discovered in 2001.  You can control an audience with 
>> >>speed.  Fast speed a la Star Wars gets you there, but so does
>> >>slow speed. Remember Kubrick's slow, stately space ship to 
>> >>Jupitar.
> >The 2001 business, I thought, partly to show how boring life in space
> >would be.

I attribute this "discovery" to Hitchcock.  Whenever you're going to
put in a shock, or a action scene, first you lull the audience with a
slow, intimate sequence, let their heartbeats get back to normal, toy
with them a bit.  Hitch did this with love scenes, or with sly little
comic turns with Cary Grant and whoever, or with silly
family-on-holiday scenes, or whatever, and then banged in the door
when you were all relaxed.  I think Lynch's method is a variant of
this--stretch out a scene beyond belief, beyond discomfort, beyond
incredulity, and then blow up the damn bank.

>> >>3.  Why are they calling the Black Lodge/White Lodge Glastonbury?
>> >>It's not an Indian name and it's certainly not a Tibetan name.
> >The name of the place where the gateway happens to be located is called
> >Glastonberry Grove.  This is also the location of the "power play" of
> >which I posted quite a lot of info on last week.  No one was calling the
> >lodges Glastonbury.

Oh, yes, that's an enormous difference: Glastonberry vs. Glastonbury.
For many people those two sound exactly alike, and it's clearly not
coincidental.  Perhaps the Access people got it wrong, like they did
with so much else, or perhaps the Glastonberry is a deliberate
diddling of the spelling, a Twinpeakization, but it's no accident.
Cooper acknowledged the connection--why do you find it unlikely?

-- Rod Johnson * rjohnson@vela.acs.oakland.edu * (313) 650 2315 "All wax is wedding wax" --Gertrude Stein

In <14947@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> marc@porsche944.Eng.Sun.COM (Marc Schneider) writes:

> > BTW- was it just me or were the way to many commercials durring the 
> >last episode. If ABC sold that much airtime to advertisers, it makes
> >you wonder why they ever canceled the show?

It was just you. :) Actually, I can remember one 24 minute period
without a commercial.  We're just so in love with the show that every
minute away is that much more painful.
-- | Gordon Harry Shephard | Distributed Computing Support Group | | Academic Computing Services | Phone: (604)291-3930 (604)464-4991 | | Simon Fraser University | USERGHS@SFU.BITNET | | Burnaby, BC, Canada. V5A 1S6 | Shephard@Whistler.sfu.ca |

From article <1991Jun11.091309.7543@topaz.ucq.edu.au>, by johnsonc@topaz.ucq.edu.au:
> In article <1991Jun10.031303.12118@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>, edb134t@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au (Daniel Bowen) writes:
>> Something I don't think I've seen people mention, which I noticed
>> when watching the dream sequence (not the flashback to it) after
>> seeing a few episodes... Laura makes the Bookhouse Boys signal
>> to Cooper..
>>
>
> Did you notice that when Mrs Palmer rang up her husband to tell him Laura
> was missing, he started crying before his wife even began to speak. As if
> he already knew Laura was dead? That tipped me off straight away, even
> though there were a lot of other strange things in the first episode.
>

So did Donna Haywood for that matter, and Josie Packard looked a tad upset
as well.

--
Craig Blundell

Department of Earth Sciences
Monash University
Clayton, Vic. 3168
AUSTRALIA

Phone : +61-3-566-7450
FAX : +61-3-561-6709
ACSnet : craigb@merlin.bhpmrl.oz
AARnet : craigb@resmel.bhp.com.au
Internet: craigb%merlin.bhpmrl.oz@uunet.uu.net

>> >>As for the ending, I was somewhat sickened.  I hated the 
>> >>Coop-sees-BOB-in-the-mirror-ending when 
>> >>it was predicted here on the newsgroup and I hate it now.  For Cooper to
>> >>have been trapped by BOB, it would mean that he still hasn't learned
> >>from his experience with Caroline, and also that he is weak. 
> >
> >Weak! Smeak!  Coop wasn't weak he sacrificed himself for Annie's life.
> >Remember WE asking Coop if he would give him his soul for Annie's life.  Coop
> >without hesitating agreed.  Only thing it was a trap.  WE couldn't take Coop's
> >soul, but BOB could.  At that point Coop was trapped.  He may have blundered,
> >but I refuse to beleive he was weak.
> >
I didn't mean that Coop's love for Annie was weak.  I meant that for
Cooper to fail in the lodge would mean that he was weak in his efforts
against BOB.  I, myself, do NOT believe that Cooper is weak and was
pointing out the inconsistency that in the plot.

Rocky Giovinazzo

In article <XH83HPG@cs.swarthmore.edu> pouncy@campus.swarthmore.edu writes:
> >Comments about the last show:
> >
> >
> >4.  Why the twelve trees and twelve rainbow trout?  Why
> >are the trees Sycamores?  Lynch's dad worked for the Interior
> >Department (a forest ranger (?)) and once did a thesis on 
> >Pine Trees (or some such species). I think this is one of 
> >Lynch's running jokes at his father's
> >expense to do his own artistic theses about trees.
> >Notice he wrote the song in the show about Sycamores - `Under 
> >the Sycamores(?).'   In witchcraft (celtic version) twelve is
> >a magic number.  Twelve witches usually form a coven and
> >at ceremonies they stand in a circle of twelve to host the devil
> >inside.  Twelve trout? Well, wouldn't they be the
> >antidote?
> >

Boy, do you have some facts twisted on this one. First, it isn't twelve, its
thirteern - twelve coveners and one high priest/high priestess, although
that is hardly a rule - or even a concrete guideline. And, Witches don't
even believe in the devil - that is a Christian concept. Before you go
off spouting facts about Witches, why don't you study books written BY
Witches, or better yet, ask a real Witch what she/he believes. 

Janet Christian (a real Witch)
-- ____*_ Janet Christian jchristian@indetech.com \ / / Independence Technologies {sun,sharkey,pacbell}!indetech!jchristian \/ / 42705 Lawrence Place FAX: 415 438-2034 \/ Fremont, CA 94538 Voice: 415 438-2054

In article <4cJGs0600Uzx42eUwn@andrew.cmu.edu> ms5h+@andrew.cmu.edu (Marci Swede) writes:
> >2.  Did Ekhardt know that Andrew was alive even?  I don't think so, but
> >correct me if I'm wrong!

Ekhardt did know this --  remember the elevator scene, "I'm
ALIIIIIVE!"  Of course, we don't know that the puzzle was put together
before this encounter.

Rocky Giovinazzo 

P.S. Coincidentally, the Star Trek, the Next Generation episode aired
today in my area was centered on 2 characters who were shape-changers
(i.e. dopplegangers).

In the 6/7/91 _Wall_Street_Journal_, there's an article about various
businesses in Washington state that have made money off "Twin Peaks" and
are sorry to see it off the air--the Mar-T "Double R Diner" Cafe in
North Bend, for example, and the Alpine Blossom & Gift Shoppe in
Snoqualmie (who peddle logs for $3.95 to $5.95 a pop).  But not every
establishment in the "real Twin Peaks" is sad to see the show leave,
apparently: "The posh Salish Lodge, which appears as the show's Great
Northern Hotel, shied away from selling lowbrow bric-a-bric.  'You just
never know if a TV show will remain popular,' sniffs manager Loy Helmly.
'We're here for the long run.'"

(Do you suppose Loy Helmly is related to Leona Helmsley?)

"Lowbrow bric-a-brac," oh?  My official Twin Peaks Sheriff's Dept.
coffee mug is most offended.

                                                       --Fiona O.

> >From: appel@xcf.Berkeley.EDU (Shannon D. Appel)

>> >> Someone mentioned that to me this morning (i.e. that the two rooms
>> >> was white and black lodge).
>> >> Has anyone sorted out what was in each place (there are 3 rooms right?
>> >> Waiting room, and two others?)  Perhaps if we break down what was
> >
> >there was only _ONE_ room.  At first it looked like two, with the middle
> >passage in between them.  Then, near the end, when Coop starts wildly running
> >about, he is going in a circle, with each entrance bringing him to the same
> >room from different sides.  Look more carefully at those last 15 minutes,
> >people.  Good and evil the same? or someone thought it would look cool?


      I beg to differ.  After it was all over my boyfriend
brought out the old graph paper and we mapped the whole
thing.  Now I'm sorta fuzzy on it, cause after watching it
for the 20th time I was getting somewhat burned out.  But,
here are his conclusions:

(Any errors are mine, as he has 25 pages of maps and notes
and I'm doing my best to decipher them from memory)

Okay, one of the clues is the statue in the hallway.  It's
there for a while, and then it disappears.  Alos, there is
one room without furniture.  So, we came to the conclusion
there are 3 rooms and 2 hallways, one hallway with a statue,
one without.  Or, looking at this map, maybe there's three
hallways.  That's it!  Okay.  There's the ahllway into the
waiting room, which has a statue in it.  Then, there's
another hallway (also with a statue) that leads to the room
where Coop faced Bob and Shadow-Laura.  Then, there's a
third hallway without a statue that leads to the empty room.
I think.  But this was the basic idea.  I think I'll shut up
till he gets home and let him post and explain all his
breakdowns etc.

                                                 Rose

redroom
RedRoom RedRoom
REDROOM REDROOM REDROOM!!!

Well, I'm glad that not everyone is disappointed in the ending.  I'm not
quite sure how I feel yet, although I doubt any of you care anyway.

A couple of things were well thought out.  Of course, the key to the
last twenty minutes were given about ten episodes ago by Hawk:

To get to the White Lodge, you must pass through the Black Lodge
where you will meet your shadow self.  Only through perfect courage
(i.e. no fear) will you conquer the shadow self.  (obviously not an
exact quote).

What does this mean?  Apparently the Major has enough courage to make
it to the White Lodge, but Cooper does not.  Was love not enough for
him?  When Cooper's shadow self caught him, it evidently meant the
end for his soul.  But what about in 25 years?

A couple of other thoughts.  What were Pete and Audrey just doing?  Fishing
at Pearl Lakes.  What are they both doing now?  (Fishing at Pearl Lakes?)

I guess Ben really is dead?  I wasn't sure to assume that while watching.
I guess I just didn't want him to die.

Happily ever after category:  Shelly and Bobby, Andy and Lucy.
Not so happily ever after:    Norma and Ed, Mike and Nadine, Leo.

Some grumblings:  Ray Wise is a much better "host" than Kyle, IMHO.
How did both Windom and Andy figure out that the ring of trees was
THE place (King Arthur???)  I was almost afraid that we had wiBOBll
hayBOBward there for a minute.  Quite out of character.

Questions:  Was that the BlackLodge version of Julee Cruise, or what?
I was hoping she'd be back.  He just didn't cut it.

Finally:  YES!  No James!

sj

[stuff about trees deleted]
> >Actually, in the northwest, Douglas Firs are fondly known as Pseudotsuga
> >Menziesii, after a botanist named Menzies.  I forgot the Latin translation
> >of 'tsuga'....

Speaking of trees... I thought that Sycamore trees were common in the
northeast not the northwest.  Maybe this is one of the reasons why the
circle is unusual.

Rocky Giovinazzo

Sure, Donna is convinced Ben is her Dad and sure Ben
and the older Haywards are hiding some horrible secret
from her but... but... but... they never SAID it, did they?
Donna said it but they never explicitly confirmed it.
In several scenes, where it would have been perfectly
natural for one of them to say something, anything that
was unambiguous, they didn't. Why is Lynch being so coy?

Oh, and I hope that fellow in the seat next to me on the
plane yesterday (Chicago-> San Jose, timed to arrive in time
for our t-p party) made it to *his* t-p party.

In article <Jun.11.11.25.55.1991.7115@pilot.njin.net> giacobbe@pilot.njin.net (Jeff Giacobbe) writes:


> >
> >Is it just me, or did anyone else notice some really strange sh*t
> >happening in the "real" world TP while Coop was in the Black Lodge??
> >It's like *time* was out of sync, like the residents of Twin Peaks had
> >skipped over the events of the past 3/4 of the season (all the W.
> >Earle stuff) or had gone back to the time just before it.   Were the
> >time/events of the TP universe shifting, reversing, or erasing while
> >Coop was in the BL???
> >
> >Evidence:
> >
> >A]  It is night when Coop enters the BL and Truman & Andy are waiting
> >'outside' for him. The Little Man offers Coop some coffee, S. Drool
> >Cup appears with the coffee, and repeats 'coffee, coffee, etc'.  When
> >next we see Truman and Andy it is 10 hours later and they have an
> >extremely slow and strange conversation.  Andy asks Truman "Do you
> >want coffee?"    (coincidence????). 
> >
> >Also, when Coop emerges from the BL, it is night again.  Did Truman
> >sit on that damned log for 24 hours, or was the 'day' scene with Andy
> >just time being out of sync while Coop was in the BL, and when he
> >(Coop) emerged, we are back to the same time frame, just a few minutes later???
> >

I think Harry was freaked.  He always was a sceptic on the
supernatural goings on, but here he actually saw the red curtains and
Cooper stepping in and disappearing.  He was in shock.
Also, I think he DID wait all night...

Well, it's over, or at least won't be picked up again for quite some time.
And I'm sorry to see it end the way it did.  Not so much for the end
itself-- the last 30 seconds were one of the most memorable parts--  but
in the promising story and character potential, which various writers on
this newsgroup seemed to flesh out more fully and coherently than the
show itself ever ended up doing.

Sigh... 

In article <7067@vela.acs.oakland.edu> R o d Johnson writes:
> >TP apocrpyha, right up there with "Fire, let's go for a stroll"
> >and 1/26.

Hmmmm...

Anyone hear anything about a 6/13 episode, by any chance?

John Ockerbloom
--
==============================================================================
jao@crl.labs.tek.com                         ockerbloom@cs.cmu.edu (forwarded)
ocker@yalecs.bitnet (forwarded)      13461 SW Electric St., Beaverton OR 97005

In article <1991Jun12.030007.7871@risky.ecs.umass.edu> giovin@medr3.ecs.umass.edu (Rocky J Giovinazzo) writes:

> >Although my dictionary doesn't have define doppleganger, my understanding of 
> >the definition of a doppleganger was a creature/being that could change its 
> >shape.  For example, it could make itself have the face and body of any other
> >creature.  

No, a doppel-ganger is simply a double (a double-goer, literally).
Your doppelganger is a creature/person who looks exactly like you.
Stories about them often treat them as if they're mere reflections,
without any independent existence.  Sometimes they're just doubles,
though.  Anyone out there have some more information on the folklore
of doppelgangers?



-- Rod Johnson * rjohnson@vela.acs.oakland.edu * (313) 650 2315 "All wax is wedding wax" --Gertrude Stein

In article <1991Jun11.233019.6654@risky.ecs.umass.edu> giovin@medr0.ecs.umass.edu (Rocky J Giovinazzo) writes:

> >P.S. Coincidentally, the Star Trek, the Next Generation episode aired
> >today in my area was centered on 2 characters who were shape-changers
> >(i.e. dopplegangers).

How's that?  Why are dopplegangers shape-changers?


-- Rod Johnson * rjohnson@vela.acs.oakland.edu * (313) 650 2315 "All wax is wedding wax" --Gertrude Stein